Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome back to Integrative lyme Solutions with Dr. Karl Feldt. I am so excited about the show that we have ahead of us. We have some phenomenal information that could save lives. You're gonna need to tune in to.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: What'S going on today.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: The information is jam packed, so don't step away.
[00:00:24] Speaker C: Hello.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: Thank you so much for joining Integrative lyme Solutions with Dr. Karlfeld. I am your host, Dr. Michael Karl Fe. I've been in clinical practice since 1987. I've seen pretty much everything under the sun, worked with so many different Lyme.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: Patients, and I know what a devastating disease this is.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: That's why I'm doing this podcast to make sure that you are armed with the information that you need in order to be able to be successful in.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Your struggle with Lyme.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: We'll be featuring authors, doctors, professors, and also people like yourself that have gone through the journey that you're going through.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: That have been where you've been and is now on the other side.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: And they get to tell their victorious story as to how they battle Lyme so that you can implement that in.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Your life as well.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: Be sure to like us and write a review on whichever platform that you're listening on. What that does is it enables other people to see us more so that they have access to this information as well. So I'm so excited that you're tuning.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: In and get ready for this upcoming show. It is going to be amazing. Well, I'm so excited to have you here today, Dr. Casey Kelly on integrated Lyme solution with Dr. Karlfeld. Thank you for spending some time with me today.
[00:01:49] Speaker C: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: Well, so why, I mean, your family practice medical doctor.
I mean, was Lyme something that was taught in medical school for you?
[00:02:02] Speaker C: No, it really wasn't. I don't remember learning much of anything about Lyme. I remember learning about what I call dumb cousin syphilis and having syphilis on almost all of my differential diagnoses, because that's a great mimicker as well. But I don't really remember learning much at all about Lyme disease, if I'm honest.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: And so, I mean, and that's usually the frustration with patients that go to their medical doctor. They deal with symptoms and there really is no understanding about Lyme and the comprehensiveness of symptoms and the need for that extensive treatment protocol.
Is that kind of your experience? Because now obviously you're seeing a lot of Lyme patients.
[00:02:46] Speaker C: Yeah, most of my practice are Lyme patients. Absolutely. And I think there's so much to it. And, you know, my approach is more of an integrated, functional medicine approach to it because I feel you have to really know the ins and outs of all the different systems, because Lyme affects everything. So you have to know about the gut, you have to know about the brain, you have to know about all of these things and how they intertwine and how Lyme affects all of those things. It's not so simple as just take a medicine and be done in two weeks. Right. It's much more complicated than that. So, yeah, it takes some. It takes some detective work and a lot of time to really work through.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: All these problems, because a lot in the medical model is more, you know, you have this. These kind of symptoms, and here's a pill to control those symptoms.
Very rarely do they try to look at what is really causing those symptoms.
[00:03:39] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think the root cause and trying to kind of dig for that and being curious about that is one of deficits in conventional medicine world. You know, we want to diagnose and treat, but we're not curious what drove this, what spurred this on? What is underlying all this on a cellular level that is causing the problem and how do we treat that? Yeah, and.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: And how. I mean, what is different with you? Because, I mean, a lot of medical doctors say, you know, a person come, you know these symptoms, and they just keep on doing the same thing, but for some reason, you pivoted and start to look more. I mean, why.
[00:04:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I got into more of the integrative mindset, really, in med school. I started to get more curious. You know, it wasn't enough for me to just say, this person has diabetes. Here's the medicine it was. Why? You know, even just family history, diet, nutrition, stress, what is going on in this person's life that leads to that? And so I started seeking out other mindsets and other ways to teach myself more about the complexity of the human body and these chronic illnesses.
And that led me in residency to do some different conferences. I went to the American Holistic Medical association, which is what it used to be called back in the day, and really found people who were in providers, who were interested in this. In this curiosity and trying to find the root cause and looking at the system as a whole. Not just neurology, cardiology, and everything in its little silo, but the whole system holistically as a whole, and really started to drive me and propel me forward. And I knew that that's what I wanted to do and how I wanted to Approach medicine.
I had some of my own medical issues throughout med school and residency. I got diagnosed with postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. And, you know, working through that and figuring out the root causes of that and how to treat that and how to manage that, you know, I found Lyme and chronic tick borne infections. And through that process of healing myself and working through that, I started looking for it in patients. And once you start looking for it, you can't stop because it's everywhere. Right. And then I was just started helping more and more people and I was just. This world opened up of all these people that need help. And so I really dove into it and got myself better. And I've, over the years, hopefully helped a lot of people get better as well.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: And POTS that, that's a common symptom for a lot of, you know, patients dealing with Lyme disease. You know, what, what was driving your POTS out of, just out of curiosity.
[00:06:22] Speaker C: It was, I believe, a combination of Lyme and Bartonella and stress and the crazy hours I had to work as a resident and not being able to keep up nutritionally with those demands as well. I think I didn't know enough then and I wasn't. I was just kind of muscling through and not really taking care of myself. And that was feeding on all of these underlying issues. And once I was able to have a better schedule and sleep more regularly and, and take care of myself better and find out what these infections were and treat those, I got, I got much, much better. I. POTS is rarely an issue at this point for me. Every once in a while, if I'm coming down with a cold, I'll get a little woozy and I know something's going on. But I was able to kind of knock it out over the years. Yeah.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: And, and how, you know, so for you then to identify Lyme and Bartonella, was it kind of like certain tests that you ran or did you just kind of through symptoms? You know, this looks like Spartan Ella or how. How did you identify that?
[00:07:22] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I did those. I did Dr. Horowitz's MSDS questionnaire to kind of prove to myself that I needed to do more testing on it. You know, it. It still is a little bit. But, you know, 10, 15 years ago, it was even more controversial and kind of scary as a provider to enter into that world because there's still a lot of litigation and things around that. So I had to kind of convince myself that I needed to look for this and dig into it and I did western blot testing and found some things and then treated some other things empirically and worked on the adrenals and the gut and all detox and all of the things around the infections too.
It took a while.
You know, these are a marathon. They're not a sprint. And so it took me several years, many years to really get to the crux of it. And where I start. Started to feel really healed and from it.
And it. It's not an easy path, so. But I've been there. I understand that. I have been through this. So it's a different kind of conversation that I can have with patients because I know and I've been there and I can see them and walk them through it and, you know, different way than people who haven't been there and haven't experienced it. And I think that gives me a little bit of a unique spin on things, too. Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: I mean, obviously when you can work with somebody that's gone through your journey in some fashion, I mean, that adds so much value in addition to you being a skilled provider, then also knowing what people are talking about, and frequently when you're dealing with these kind of symptoms and especially if it's been going on for a long time, then you just want to take a pill and get better. And so you, you know, that. That patient aspect, you know, patient patience aspect, you know, really doesn't exist. Yeah. You just want to get, you know, be done with this.
[00:09:20] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: And then I assume just having that conversation. Yeah. That it's not a sprint, it is a marathon and it's going to take time.
[00:09:30] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it does. And I think I. I hear that I from. For patients, especially when they've come to me and they've been sick for eight years, you know, they're done. They just don't want to do this anymore. Right. So I hear that, you know. Absolutely. I want to do everything in my power to get them as healthy as possible as quickly as possible. But, you know, it can take a long time, unfortunately, really to get there.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Hello, dear listeners, this is Dr. Michael Karlfeld, your host of integrative Lyme solutions. Today, I'm excited to share an exclusive opportunity from the Karlfeld center, where we blend healing power of nature with groundbreaking therapies to combat Lyme disease and its associated challenges. At the Karlfield center, we're not just fighting Lyme, we're revolutionizing the way it's treated with cutting edge therapies like photodynamic therapy, full body ozone, IV therapy, silver IVs, brain rebalancing, autonomic response testing, laser energetic detoxification, and more. We aim to eradicate Lyme. Our approach is comprehensive, supporting your body's immune system, detoxification processes, hormonal balance, and mitochondrial health, ensuring a holistic path to recovery. Understanding Lyme disease and its impact is complex, which is why we're offering a free 15 minute discovery call with one of our Lyme literate naturopathic doctors. This call is your first step towards understanding how we can personalize your healing journey, focusing on you as a whole person, not just your symptoms. Our team, led by myself, Dr. Michael Karl Filtz, is here to guide you through your recovery with the most advanced diagnostic tools, individualized treatment plans, and supportive therapies designed to restore your health and vitality. Whether you're facing Lyme disease head on or seeking preventative strategies, we're committed to your wellness. Take the first step towards reclaiming your health. Visit us at thecarlefullcenter.com or call us at 208-338-8902 to schedule your free discovery call at the Karlfield Center. We believe in healing naturally, effectively and holistically. Thank you for tuning in into integrative lyme solution with Dr. Karl Feld. Remember, true health is not just the absence of disease. It's achieving the abundance of vitality. Let's discover yours together.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: And did you have, I mean, did you have like a bullseye rash? I mean, because a lot of times the medical doctors say, you know, if it's no bullseye rash, and yeah, you probably didn't have it. I mean, is that. Did you ever experience that?
[00:12:08] Speaker C: Nope. I do not remember having a tick bite. I don't remember having a bullseye rash.
You know, just like the masses, most people don't remember having these things. My guess is I picked it up as a kid. I used to run around barefoot around the neighborhood. I used to go to girl scout camp, you know, camp, you know, tents in the woods and played in the streams and did all the things. And so I probably picked it up when I was little and didn't really know that that's what. That I had it or was an issue.
Yeah. But I. I don't know. I don't know where I got it. I don't know when I, you know, I don't know. Yeah, and.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: And a lot of times that's exactly what it is. You know, you just don't know. You know, we. You have the symptoms, you know, finally you do the diagnosis and you do the treatment and people get better. I just don't know where it came from. And a lot of times, I mean like in your case, I mean potentially you got it as a kid, but it didn't present itself until, you know, decades later.
[00:13:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's probably a lot of people walking around with these infections and don't know and you can kind of keep them at bay. If you are exercising and you're eating well and you're managing your stress and you're sleeping well and you're doing the things to take care of yourself, you can keep, keep them at bay for a while until something happens and opens Pandora's box and then everything kind of goes haywire.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: So knowing that, I mean in your case, you know, recognizing that you, you had, you know, you're dealing with all this stress, you know, you going through internship and so it sounds like in, yes, you can go after the infections about how important it is to do all these other things around it in order to be able to have an environment that the infection doesn't express itself that strongly.
[00:14:04] Speaker C: I often think about these chronic tick borne infections and vector borne infections, not necessarily as an infectious disease issue, but as an immunological issue because they change, especially when they're chronic. They actively change your immune system to support their growth.
And that process really changes a lot of things in our body and can spur on autoimmune diseases or other things in our system. And so it's not so simple as just knocking out the infection, especially when we've been sick for several years and your system kind of gets re acclimated to the new normal. Even if we can clear out the infection, it's still behave misbehaving because it now thinks that that's right and that's continuing to cause inflammation and other symptoms and other issues that are going on. So it is imperative that you deal with all the other aspects of this and the different ramifications of the infection. And that's part of why it's so complex. That's why it's different in everybody. And every person presents a little differently. That's why it makes it so hard to diagnose. You know, it's, it's, it's brilliant.
Lyme disease, terrifyingly brilliant in a lot of ways.
You know, but we have to really put people back together too. We have to heal the gut, we have to heal the immune system, we have to make sure they're detoxing. We have the nervous system. You have to look at all These different aspects that have been manipulated by the infections and reset them. And that's part of. That's the big, big part of why it takes so long to really heal from this. It can be done. It can be done. It just takes a while.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Like you said, there's so many systems that have become dysfunctional, and you have to kind of go by system and system to correct that because it almost sounds like, you know, you can still be presenting with the Lyme symptoms even though the pathogen is gone, because the immune system is still dysfunctional.
[00:16:04] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: So, and. And that's the issue is that a lot of people, I mean, they deal with these symptoms so long and they know that it relates to Lyme or know that it relates to this bug, and they just think, yeah, get this bug out of me, you know, because I. And then I'll feel good. Just. Just kill it. And. But then they do all these different killing, you know, type of therapies, and they may still be sick, they may still be dealing with issues, and then they just kind of keep on thinking that they need to kill more, when in reality there are other aspects they need to look at.
[00:16:41] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that can definitely happen. Yep.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: So. So if you. If you don't mind, just kind of. What. What are. What are some of the common symptoms that you see with patients coming in dealing with Lyme? I mean, what. What, you know, what. What does your patient population look like?
[00:16:58] Speaker C: Yeah, probably the. The biggest constellation of symptoms would be pain, usually migratory joint pain, but it can be, you know, stable joint pain as well. Fatigue, chronic fatigue and exercise intolerance, type of fatigue and brain fog, cognitive dysfunction, unable to think clearly, unable to remember things. Getting the words out properly is a problem. Those are the big three that, That I see. And then from there, people will also have rheumatoid arthritis type of issues, or multiple sclerosis type issues, or Parkinson's, like issues, or other things on top. Top of that kind of constellation. Yeah.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: So how about things like, you know, elderly dementia, Alzheimer's, you know, can. Can Lyme play a factor in that as well?
[00:17:46] Speaker C: Absolutely. You know, Dale Bredesen has done work on this at UCLA in his book Ending Alzheimer's. Lyme is one of his drivers for dementia, and it has been found in the brain of people who have passed away from dementia or Alzheimer's. And so there's some sort of correlation there. Absolutely. Between that and we're seeing it more usually thankfully, early, you know, and it's more of the short term memory Issues, the confusion. They're not thinking as clearly as they used to. They can't fire on all cylinders the, the way that they used to or remember people's names the way they used to or those kind of things. But it absolutely can progress. And if it's not being treated, if that's, you know, a big symptom for you, that can potentially lead to a dimension. Dementia. Sorry. Or Alzheimer's, like state. Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: And. And that's the thing is, I mean, it, it's known as the great mimicker. Yeah. So it, it can show up pretty much as any kind of disease. Yeah. Even things like thyroiditis or Hashimoto's or. Yeah. Like you mentioned rheumatoid arthritis. And, and then people, they go on biologics and they go on all these different therapies and they don't find the root cause. You know, what, what is the underlying factor and that, that's something that, you know, like yourself, I mean, that, that's where you put on the boots and, and bring out the shovel and start looking.
[00:19:12] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. You've got to look under every rock. And it's not just, I mean, typically with these kind of chronic infection or not, sorry, chronic disease states, whatever it may be, there's usually some sort of underlying infection or toxin that's driving it. Those kind of the two big things we look for. Nutritional deficiencies would be another thing. Chronic stress will often drive all of this as well. But it's not usually necessarily the biggest. The culprit necessarily just kind of fueling that fire, if you will. So whenever anybody comes in with ulcerative colitis or other type of chronic diseases, we're looking for infection. Infections and not just Lyme, but it's buddies too. It's. It brings all these friends along. So we look for and, and yeast and mycoplasma and other infections as well. We're looking because these things are driving that immune system to misbehave.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Speaker C: That needs to be ruled out.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: They come as a gang. You know, it's not just one person. They, they. Or one bug. They, they always, they're, they're wussies. So they got a whole of. Bring a whole gang.
[00:20:15] Speaker C: Exactly, exactly.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: So, so you're in the process, you're just launching a master class that I know be available in just a couple of months or so. So tell me, tell me a little bit about how a person, you know, dealing with Lyme. So as you are guiding them through that process. What, what would a kind of a A step by step process look like for, for somebody battling, you know, these kind of diseases.
[00:20:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm, I'm creating this master class for patients to help navigate all of, all of this and in ways to help themselves early on to make some changes. It takes a long time to get into Lyme. Literate doctors, we're all extremely busy. We all have big wait lists because there's not enough of us. So what do we do in the meantime? How to, how do we work through this and navigate it? And at the core, the foundations, the foundations of health are still very, very important. And they sound simple and they're not necessarily easy to implement, but if we can focus on eating the right type of foods, anti inflammatory foods, if we can work on trying to get some movement in, whether that, what that looks like. You know, if you're chronically fatigued, that might mean going to the mailbox every day. Right. You know, we can't necessarily do a high intensity workout due to our symptoms, but we can still get some movement in and try to kind of keep some muscle stability in there. How well are we sleeping? Sleep is hugely affected by these, you know, what can we do to help manage our sleep and make that a priority? What is our stress like? You know, these infections and being chronically sick and not knowing why that's a huge stress on us. Not, you know, not to, you know, even speak about the psychological stress related with this and how it affects our family and our relationships and our work and, and the other traumas in history that we have. The stress system just gets totally burnt out by all of this. So we have to work on managing that and working through that. And then kind of the extra bonus would be detox. How can we start to help our bodies detox? Almost every single Lyme patient and chronic disease patient that comes in here has trouble detoxing, whether it's genetic or just that there's just this overabundance of toxins that we can no longer handle. So we do have to help balance that out and get the toxins out as well. So that, to me, that's important. That's where we start. And if you can do those things, you will start to help yourself feel better in the process while you're finding the right provider to really dig down to the root cause and, and, and get to the bottom of what's going on and not just get shoved off by the doctors and say, your labs are fine, this all in your head, off with you. You know, don't bother me. I hear that way too much. So learning to advocate for yourselves and things you can do for yourselves in the meantime while you're waiting for that provider to help you get through there, that's what the masterclass is really designed to do, to help navigate that and then, you know, build upon that and educate and help people help themselves. Because there's a lot we can still do for ourselves through this process too.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And it seems like these tools, I mean, yes, maybe you haven't identified exactly which bug. Yes, maybe you haven't gone, but you know, the bug killers, you know, the common ones, but you're setting up the terrain to be able to deal with these infections at a much better way. And then knowing that I may have had these infections for decades and they didn't express until, like in your case, dealing with stress. So if I can correct these factors and obviously I'm going to be doing so much better, maybe I don't even need to kill the line, you know, maybe it can just settle down and calm and. Yeah. Instead of being one of these little, you know, child brat screaming. Yeah, maybe calm down and gets its pacifier.
[00:24:08] Speaker C: Yes.
It gets, it gets to go to its pretty little box and just sit there and we can live and, you know, thrive and with each other and not cause problems.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. We all live happily ever after.
The little ogre and the princess, you know, so.
And that's the thing is that when you're dealing with Lyme, I mean, you, you need somebody to. Because, I mean, with, especially with the cognitive aspect, it's hard then to figure out what to do when you have a hard time remembering how to, you know, get from the gas station to home in a town that you lived all your life, you know, so you know, how to put that pressure on that individual to figure it all out. It's, it's, it's, that's a lot. So to have a class like that, have somebody that, that walks you through, you know, these are the fundamentals, this is how you do it becomes extremely valuable in my mind.
[00:25:09] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not everybody has access to, you know, lime literate dogs and like I said, there's just not enough of us around. Right. And so this is just a way to help kind of bridge that gap to, to get to that spot and make it and help more people and get more accessibility and help people help themselves. Right. So there's a lot we can do. Yeah. And it's hard because you get hopeless. It's hard when you're sick and you don't Feel good and you can't think clearly and you're just fed up. It's hard to, to recognize and understand and do the things that you know will help you when you don't feel well. It's hard.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: No, no. Yeah.
How many? Because Lyme, I mean, it. It seems like it's just exploding, you know how. I mean, this is like several hundred thousand, like 600,000 cases a year or something like that.
[00:26:05] Speaker C: Yeah, we don't have the, the full numbers, but it's at least a half a million people a year are getting diagnosed with, with Lyme disease and co. Infections.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: And that's the thing. I mean, like, you're saying there's just not enough of Lyme literate doctors out there. So that's why these kind of additional informational courses become so important here. We get half a million plus each year getting diagnosed, and obviously we don't have 500 line litter doctors that each one can take a thousand each year. You know, that doesn't exist.
[00:26:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: So when. When do you bring in, you know, some of these killing aspects? I mean, do you always kind of lay the foundation first and then identify and see what, what agents that, that this individual would benefit the most from?
[00:27:04] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, we take a very, very individualized approach to Lyme disease. So we don't have any set protocols, if you will, because every patient is so, so different and comes to us at a different stage in a different state with different symptoms. So some people, you know, we do spend a lot of time building up their foundations first and foremost so that they can handle treatment. Because if I threw a cannonball at them, I don't think they would be able to handle it. And I don't want to make things worse. We want to make things better. Right. So we have to do it at the right time. For other patients, we. We do jump right in and use antimicrobial prescriptions or herbs or IVs or whatever we need to do. That seems right for that patient at that time to, to start the fight. And there are times where we stop the attack mode, if you will, and. Or pause the attack mode because they're not handling it or. Or what? Right. So sometimes it's more heal and repair, and sometimes it's more attack. Sometimes it's both. You know, I'm usually spinning a bunch of plates and trying to manage a bunch of the different things all at once in order to get the best results, to kind of think about all those. Those different aspects in there. So it's hard to give a straight answer on that. It's very, very patient dependent and figuring out where they are, what's right for them, what they've been through, what, what's worked for them in the past, where they are, et cetera. You know, just kind of gathering all that information at the visit and trying to figure out what the right next steps are for that plan.
[00:28:35] Speaker B: And, and there's always this kind of antibiotic versus herbal antimicrobial, you know. What, what is your stance? Yeah, some. Some people feel like, you know, we gotta hit it with antibiotic and do it all the time. Other people feel like, no, that's too harsh. You know, we, we should do herbal. You can do it all with herbal.
What, what is. From your experience? What, what have you seen?
[00:28:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I've seen both work. You know, I've seen prescriptions work. I've seen herbs work. I've seen people who can't tolerate herbs, who can tolerate medications and vice versa. Herbs can be potent. They can cause really big herxes, you know, and there are plenty of patients that we've treated with simply herbs and not use prescriptions and not needed to.
And there's other patients that we haven't used herbs, we've only used prescriptions. So again, it's really patient dependent. But I think, you know, that's where the benefit lies of having a provider who can kind of, you know, juggle all of that and, and kind of decide what is right for the patient. I'm also very willing to change gears. So if something isn't working, we need to change gears. Whether it's different herbs or different meds, or adding in IV therapies or peptides or other supportive things, you know, if we're not getting the results I want, we gotta switch gears. We gotta, we gotta play things around and figure out what will work for you.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: And how do you determine if something works or not? Because a lot of time, because it's such a mess, and then you may be doing something that's really effective and people feel horrible. And then you may be doing something that is not effective and people feel horrible just because it's the wrong thing. So how, how do you, how do you navigate that?
[00:30:20] Speaker C: Yeah, that is a great question because it's so true. And, you know, that's that kind of herxheimer, like reaction that die off reaction that can happen with treatment where people feel worse before they feel better.
One kind of caveat for me, when, you know, I try to really support people with a lot of Herxheimer reaction. Ideas and support and things that they can do, you know, so if they start to take an herb with Japanese knotweed in it, let's just say they're starting to really hurt. Their flu, like, their fatigue is increased, their pain, Pain is increased, et cetera. They do an Epsom salt bath. They take a little binder, like charcoal, and everything kind of calms down a little bit. Okay, that's probably a Herxheimer reaction. Cool. Like, can we manage this? Is this manageable? This something we can get through? It will get better, right? That's good. That is a good sign, in my opinion. It means we're getting at something, we're upsetting something. It's reacting. Your immune system is reacting. This is a good thing. We're getting somewhere.
There's too much. There's too big. Like, there's reactions that are too big. I don't like. I'm not. No pain, no gain type of person. If it's too much and you cannot function, we revert and go somewhere else.
But if you're taking something and there's. It's just. The symptoms are huge. You're not getting any reprieve from any of the Herxheimer support. Everything just seems to be going downhill. And there's no. No good days in there. There's no edge being taken off by the Herxheimer support. Things then that's too much, and that's when I will stop and try something new.
Or if they're so bad they can't get out of bed, that could be a good thing. That could be a Herxheimer type of reaction. But it's too much, and that's too much of an immune reaction for me to then work on kind of cleaning up that mess afterwards. So it's. That's that balancing act. But that's one of the things I look for is did this take the edge off of it? Okay, can we do this? Okay. You know, we're good. And that will help me figure that out.
Another thing that I will also like, see in the. The history, too, is I'm having more good days. I'm having more good days than I had before. I'm still having my bad days. They're not as bad or they don't last as long as they did before. I'm still getting my headaches, but they're not every day. They're three days a week, and they're not as severe or what have you. Those are also signs that things are getting better, even if there are flares still or hercs or like those reactions. If we're seeing more of those, the clouds parting a little bit here and there, that's also a good sign that we're on the right track.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: And another challenge is that, you know, so you're, you're using one. You talk like Japanese knotweed and you're kind of writing that you're seeing that, yes, there's some more good days. And then all of a sudden, yeah, the progression seems to, to stop. You know, you have the same kind of symptomology still. It's not getting any better. You know, how do you, how do you know when you kind of been riding that train enough, you know, and you need to jump onto another train? I mean, when, when do you pivot?
[00:33:29] Speaker C: I kind of, I typically go in about three month chunks, literally speaking, that I give a good treatment a good three months to see what's going to happen, good or bad. We'll stop earlier if we need to. Some of the things we talked about before, but if we've done, you know, if we're plateaued, if we've gotten kind of a good. But we're stuck here for a month or so and we're just not seeing a change. It's not worse, but it's not better. That's when a good time to change is. Another good time to change or add to the plan is when new stuff starts creeping up. Because sometimes as we start to treat Lyme, for example, and it comes down, then Babesia symptoms will come up and we didn't know we had. And now we've got to treat the Babesia. Oh, and then Bartonella will kind of creep up and so we have to treat the Bartonella. So there's new kind of emergence of things. And peeling back the layers is also a sign that we need to change or add or adjust the treatment plan.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Yeah, so you use the word peeling back the layers, you know, so, you know, here, you know, in my mind, you just have a bunch of infections. So how, how can it be layer on that? I mean, just seems like they're all just running around all over the place, you know, how do you peel back layers of that?
[00:34:44] Speaker C: Well, you know, we still only, we can only do so much. Our body can only really do so much at some time. So it's not uncommon. That infection is kind of leading the charge. And I will also kind of describe it as immune system whack. A mole. You know, like, you deal with one thing and then the next one pops up and then you deal with that when the next one pops up because of the space and capacity that we have, and whether it's one is kind of wider, you know, in its more stable state or round body state or cystic form and kind of hanging out and waiting for its turn to creep out because somebody else is taking all the attention.
There's. So they're not always all active all the time. And. And there's lots of things at play with that.
But I do see very clinically, very commonly that we treat one and we get that to kind of calm down and then the next one will kind of come up after that. And sometimes it's stuff that we didn't know you had. Maybe it didn't even show up in the blood work because it wasn't very active at that time and the immune system wasn't responding to it loudly at that time to. To see it positive on the test. But gosh, those symptoms are just sound like babies here or something else in there. So that we have to work on treating that. And so that's what I mean by kind of feeling back the layers. You deal with one and then you kind of have to deal with the next. You know, we're often dealing with multiple all at once anyway. We're kind of using especially what's great about herbs is that they treat multiple things. It's not, you know, one medicine for one bug. It's. Well, this herb treats like crypto lapis. That's a great herb. It treats multiple different infections. And that's been proven in the literature. Like we see that that it can help in a lot of ways. So we can kind of kill two birds or three birds with one stone, which is nice benefit of that. And those are some of the plates I keep spinning for people in that process.
Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, we have again that kind of continual adjustment because as you go through the process, why it take so long? You know, we have different things change and we have to be able to adjust to that and stick with it long enough to like if we are seeing improvements and we are seeing changes. That's one of my like clinical fallacies, I guess early on was I would be so excited because they were feeling better. So I would stop the antibiotics and then all of their symptoms would rush back and it was harder to treat.
So, you know, I keep people on things for longer than I need to, if you will, or longer than may seem like we need to based on the labs or their symptoms, because I want to make sure we're not Only does that now suppressed and being treated and down here. But now we're healing and repairing and doing all the other stuff. So it stays there and it under the bridge where we're kind of hang out.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: And that's. I mean, that's where it comes in with the art to kind of know it's not only take this, take that. It's knowing when to adjust, when to adapt, you know, when to shift towards something else. Yeah. Because they're like you're saying there's all these different plates you're spinning all over the place and you're trying to just keep them from not falling.
And so you have all these different infections. But then you mentioned there are different forms of infections. You have cystic. You have, you know, you got the biofilms. You got. I mean there's so many components of them. So you got to consider that as well in the journey.
[00:38:09] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It doesn't make it easy, doesn't make it on us.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: It doesn't. So, so when do you being. You know, one of the things that you know is big out there, you know, biofilms. And we know that these pathogens, they kind of hide behind biofilms and so make it hard for antibiotics to get in there and. And, and kill them off. Because, you know, the biofilms, you know, doesn't allow the antibiotic the access. So when. When would a person consider biofilm? Because I assume once you bring that in, then you got to be ready to take care of whatever comes out.
[00:38:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you do. It's a. It's another Pandora's box. And I usually don't attack biofilm immediately. I'm usually kind of starting treatments in general first and kind of figuring out what's working and what's not. And that may be something we start to add in when people plateau is adding in some enzymes or other biofilm busters to start to attack that and get that going, get to that next layer of. Of the treatments and the infections. So. And yeah, I typically I'm gonna do that when I already have herbs or meds on board that can help sweep the streets and clean up that entourage that on enslave of onslaught. Excuse me, of extra infection that can happen. When you start to really break open that biofilm.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: You really have no idea what's behind that biofilm. I mean, so it's like opening up a door and you have the Italian mafia coming out. You know, you really don't know what's going to come.
[00:39:47] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And you know, these guys hang out and they talk to each other and they share genetic information and other things when they're in there.
So, yeah, what comes out is different than what went in.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: And that's. You're talking about genetic information. I mean, because they. They give each other tools and learn from each other. So that becomes some of the challenges, I would assume, with testing, because some will then pick up different aspects, you know, that the world test as if it was another bug, when in reality it is just kind of a babesia, bartonella or whatever.
[00:40:26] Speaker C: Yeah. And they learn how to evade the immune system better, you know, and how to evade the herbs or the medications. They can learn that from each other too.
Yeah, it's that terrifyingly brilliant aspect of these guys. And we. We have to try to stay one step ahead of it, but they're brilliant. So. Yeah. To try to match wits.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. I mean, and that's the thing, is that you. You have to appreciate the brilliance of the pathogen and not underestimate, you know, the. The intelligence. I mean, it's been around forever. I mean, so it has evolved, and they've seen it, they've done it, and they. They are masters at surviving.
[00:41:14] Speaker C: Yep, absolutely.
[00:41:16] Speaker B: So how do you. When you.
You were talking about that you like to run the protocol a little bit longer. I mean, what does longer look like? I mean. Yeah, because we talked about, you know, knowing when to pivot, and you're seeing, you know, if I run here. Yes, now they feel great, but you keep doing it for a while longer. I mean, what. What does that look like? And I assume it's different from different person people, but, you know, you have to have kind of a. Some idea in the back of your mind of what you like to do.
[00:41:49] Speaker C: I do try to get people off of prescriptions as soon as possible. You know, once someone is stable and feeling better. But I will transition then to herbs. At that point, they're just a little easier on the system. And herbs also have tendencies to help support the immune system in ways that the prescriptions often do not. And so we can kind of get some extra bonus and benefits from the herbs.
So I will work on trying to transition them off of medications as soon as possible. Now, that being said, I. I will be honest. I have patients that have been on meds for quite a while, but as long as their liver, their gut, their, you know, things are in there feeling good, and they need that. They need that. And so we have to work within those confines and monitor the system and make sure we're not causing harm when we do that.
But there's something like, you know, Dr. Rawls, I think he's going to be on herbs for the rest of his life for these things. In, in one, I will kind of use the metaphor of sweeping the streets, you know, so I may not even have them on full blown attack doses of, of herbs, but we might stay on some gentle herbs for a year or two just to, to make sure that we're, you know, keeping those streets clean.
But it could be anywhere from three months to forever. Then I'm going to keep them on things and I will also, you know, teach people that when life comes at you and stresses come at you and you might feel some twinges of some old Lyme symptoms coming back, go right back on those herbs. Start that now. Don't wait, don't pass go, don't collect 200, just do it now before. And if you do it for a couple weeks and then you go back to those fundamentals and you work on your stress and you work on your diet and you work on your sleep, those symptoms that were kind of starting to creep up will often go and go right back down to normal at that point. But it's our, we just always, as vector borne infection patients have to be vigilant and stay on top of that and know how to adjust and go, okay, this is my body's way of saying, pay attention. You've got to start to take care of yourself a little bit better. So we have that kind of internal thermostat to help us gauge that.
But yeah, I mean, I'm going to keep people on herbs for an extra three months or so at least to make sure that I'm sweeping the streets and resetting the system. And it helps me as long and that buys time to help repair because it's putting that everything back together then and making sure the gut is in working order. That's where most of the immune system is. So making sure that that's thriving, making sure their sleep is good, making sure their diet's good, you know, putting all of that back together then, then I can confidently feel like we can come off of the herbs or the meds that point.
[00:44:27] Speaker B: And, and just kind of lastly, what are some of your favorite herbs? And you talked about IVs, you know, what are some of your favorite IV set that you bring on? And, and obviously, you know, these are just, you know, they're a lot of different options, but you know, which ones do you feel that you, you kind of gravitate towards most.
[00:44:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, the biggest one I use as a supportive tool is ozone. I think that that really helps, especially if you have BBC, because it's in the red blood cells. We're treating that. Or Bertinella, which is in the endothelial cells. You were kind of getting to that a little more directly. So I use a lot of ozone to help the meds and the herbs and things work better faster and heal and repair better, faster.
That's one of our biggest ones. But we, I mean, we utilize several. So we've got vitamin C, we've got Artemisin and we've got nad. We've got all, all kinds of tools depending on what symptoms patients have. Phosphatidylcholine, alpha lipoic acid. We've got a lot of different tools for that healing and repair.
I tend to use a fair amount of herbal combinations, not straight up herbs, although I do for some patients because they need to have simply cat's cloth, simply Japanese knotweed, and those are two kind of mainstays for a lime. I do like Cryptolepis a lot. I like artemisinin a lot. I like Houtinia for BART support, but also immune modulation.
And so I, you know, personally, I'm using a lot of beyond balance herbs combinations.
But we use several companies and several things just really depending on what the patient's going to respond to or what they're going to be more compliant with. Drops versus pills. You know, that's a big question too. What are you. What can you legitimately do on a regular basis? What's easier for you? Drops, pills? Like where. Where are you in that world in there? So those are some of my favorites.
[00:46:16] Speaker B: Well, I love it. Well, Dr. Kelly, thank you so much for the work that you're doing. I mean, your people, like you, are so needed everywhere. Yeah, there's so many people struggling out there. And thank you for making yourself available. And I'm excited about this course that you are going to have available for patients and for people while they're looking then for a provider. Because like you mentioned, people like yourself are so booked. So thank you so much for spending time with me today.
[00:46:48] Speaker C: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. And you guys can take a look at our website, caseintegrativehealth.com you can keep an eye on there. That's when the class will show up. It'll be up there on our website.
[00:46:58] Speaker B: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
[00:47:00] Speaker C: Thank you. Have a great day.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: The information, this podcast is for educational purposes only and it's not designed to diagnose or treat any disease. I hope this podcast impacted you as it did me. Please subscribe so that you can be notified when new episodes are released. There are some excellent shows coming up that you do not want to miss. If you're enjoying these podcasts, please take a moment to write a review. And please don't keep this information to yourself. Share them with your friends, family and friends. You never know what piece of information that will transform their lives. For past episodes and powerful information on how to conquer lyme, go to integrativelimesolutions.com and an additional powerful resource, limestream.com for lime support and group discussions. Join Lime Conquerors Mentoring Lime warriors on Facebook. If you'd like to know more about the cutting edge integrative Lyme therapies my center offers, please visit thecarlfeldcenter.com thank you for spending this time with us and I hope to see you at our next episode of Integrative lyme Solutions with Dr. Karl Feldt.
