[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome back to Integrative Lyme Solutions with Doctor Karl Feldt.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: I am so excited about the show.
[00:00:07] Speaker C: That we have ahead of us.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: We have some phenomenal information that could save lives.
[00:00:13] Speaker C: You're gonna need to tune in to what's going on today.
[00:00:16] Speaker D: The information is jam packed, so don't step away.
[00:00:24] Speaker C: Well, Doctor Darren Engels, it's such a pleasure to have you on integrative lime solutions. Thank you so much for being with me here today.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: My absolute pleasure.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: So you are a naturopathic doctor, you're practicing in Connecticut, you moved to Connecticut, I believe.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: I'm in California now. I was in Connecticut for almost 20 years, and then I made the move out here full time about six years ago.
[00:00:51] Speaker C: Okay. Okay, so I'm curious, so as you move then to Connecticut, I mean, you must have known that it was line country moving there, right?
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Well, you know, I finished residency in Seattle, and I was invited to join a practice in Connecticut. And of course, you know, being in Seattle at the time, in the late, you know, it was 1999 or 2000, and I think I'd seen one Lyme patient, actually, which was one of the attending doctors at Bastille, where I went to school. And I think it was my entire experience with Lyme disease. And, you know, he was treated with antibiotics, and he did pretty well.
And I lived in Connecticut for about not quite a year and a half, and I was two weeks out from opening my own practice, and I got Lyme disease. I had all the classic symptoms. I had the bullseye rash, the 105 fever, the joint pain, the neuropathy, and I did what I thought you were supposed to do, and I did 21 days of doxycycline. And within four days of starting antibiotics, I felt perfectly fine. But for anyone who's opened their own business, they knows what it like. I couldn't afford staff, so I was doing everything myself. Eight months into that schedule, I started to relapse, and, you know, my joint pain started coming back. I had back pain, I started getting neuropathy, and so I was like, well, doxycycline worked before, let me do it again. So I went on a month of doxy, didn't do anything, switched to a month of zithromycin, didn't do anything. And then I started working with a local Lyme doctor and just really various combinations of oral antibiotics, and I started getting worse. And I think over the course of six months, I lost about 30 pounds. My gut was a mess, I couldn't eat, my appetite was in the tube, and I was fortunate to have known of a doctor in New York City who's a chinese medical doctor and acupuncturist, and he started me on chinese herbs, getting acupuncture. And part of it was just the wake up call of like, hey, stupid, you got to take care of yourself. And within a month of that, I felt 80, 85% better. And I felt like it still took another two plus years to get really 100%, but eventually got to a point where all the symptoms went away. So I really just started kind of applying what I did for myself to. Of course, now I'm starting to see more Lyme patients, being in Connecticut longer, and found that, you know, this was a more efficient way of getting people over that hurdle.
[00:03:15] Speaker C: So when you say more efficient, you mean the more of the natural therapies, like the herbs and working on the system as a whole, rather than just kind of throwing antibiotics on it?
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Exactly. I think, you know, when I started thinking about, again, my own experience with Lyme, you know, killing the bug by itself, I don't think was enough. And I was starting to see that in some of my patients. And, of course, now seeing people, given the area, who'd been to other doctors that were much more centered around antibiotics, and I'd seen people who are now on their 5th, 6th, 7th, 10th, 12th antibiotic regimen that weren't getting better. And I'm like, well, gosh, if this is really just about killing the bug, you know, you've taken enough medication to kill a horse, you know, that that should have been enough. So why aren't people getting better when they're on straight up antimicrobial therapy? And again, I start just thinking about my own experience. I'm like, well, you know, your gut matters, your diet matters, how well you're sleeping, how well you're moving your body, and of course, all these things get complicated with your symptoms. And, I mean, I can remember being exhausted to the point where at the end of the day, I mean, I was still working. And I look back, I'm like, I don't know how I did it, but I did. And I would come home at the end of the day and I would just plop in front of the couch and I could barely move. But I'm like, you know what? I can't really exercise. And I was a. A pretty hardcore athlete most of my life, but I could stretch. I could stretch. And so I started stretching. And then eventually it was laps around the house, then laps around the neighborhood. And I eventually worked up to a point where I started studying martial arts. I got a black belt in karate when I was, like, 40 some years old, but it took a long time to be able to do that. So, you know, I think it was just all those little pieces that, you know, we have to look at every individual. You know, where's that obstacle? What is the thing or things that's really stopping this innate ability that's built into our body to heal? Why does that not happen easily for people dealing with Lyme? And so, again, as I kind of just started applying what I did for myself, I'm like, okay, well, if we really start paying attention to your sleep pattern, if we really start minding what you're putting in your mouth, in addition to all the herbs and other things we're doing to kind of target the bug, you know, that seemed to help people get better faster, and you ended.
[00:05:25] Speaker C: Up, you know, with. With all the experience you have, you know, with, you know, seeing all these Lyme patients and obviously, obviously kind of going through the journey yourself, you. You ended up writing a book online. I know you've written other books as well, but, you know, this one specifically online, so. And in there, I mean, it's like a five point plan that. That you're, you're discussing, right?
[00:05:48] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, when I started writing the book, of course, I started hearing from all these people that were in areas that weren't, you know, north New England, where, you know, they were told there is no line where you live, and people were kind of strandled. You know, they didn't have a local practitioner to be kind of a guide for them. So I wanted to have a resource for people who didn't necessarily have a practitioner. Like, how can you walk through this, you know, on your own? You know, it's a hard Dyi, but the reality is that there's a lot of people who get put in situations where, again, they don't necessarily have a good Lyme doctor they're working with. So I wanted to lay out kind of a step by step plan that anybody could follow that I think would help a lot of people. And although there's so much variability in Lyme disease and how it affects people, I felt like this was as comprehensive as I could be to try to apply to the masses, and that's really what the Lyme solution was about.
[00:06:44] Speaker C: And when you have a patient that are exhibiting signs of Lyme first and foremost, I mean, when do you start to suspect Lyme? Because obviously, not everyone have the bullseye rash, and not everyone knows that they've been bittende. Yeah. So what? When do you start to suspect Lyme?
[00:07:03] Speaker B: You know, I think, for me, that combination of arthritic complaints and neurologic complaints, that combination is a big red flag because there's very few things that cause both. You know, there's a lot of things that can cause joint pain, there's a lot of things that can cause neuropathy and other neurological things. But when you see the combination, you know, that kind of narrows that down to just a handful of things. And when I see people have had these chronic, unexplained symptoms, you know, we know with Lyme disease, there's over 100 different symptoms associated. And I've seen some really strange presentations over the years. I can remember years ago, I had a woman who came to my clinic when I lived in Connecticut, and her only symptoms, she had a little spot on her cheek that was about the size of a quarter, that was completely numb. She was otherwise perfectly fine. It just had been there a long time. It wasn't going away. She felt like maybe it was getting a little bigger. And I said, let's just test you for Lyme. She actually had a CDC positive Lyme test, which course is rare, and we did treat her, and that little numb spot went away. But that was her only symptom. Fortunately, you know, for her, that was it. For so many more people. It's so much worse than that. But I think it kind of speaks to, again, how individual this disease can be for people. And because there's so many different presentations, you know, for any of us, you know, who've been in the game for a while, we've seen plenty of people that have been to all the specialists. They've been to the rheumatologist, the neurologists. They get the blood test, the imaging, the spec scan, the MRI, and it's just like, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. So when you've got this sort of mysterious collection of symptoms, and you've been to all the specialists and they can't figure it out, I think there's a fairly high probability, because I know it's the one thing most people don't look at is whether it's Lyme or some other tick borne illness, you know, Bartonella, babesia and so forth, it's at least worth investigating that.
[00:08:50] Speaker C: And I'm curious, from your perspective, since you've seen, you see, so many Lyme patients have seen, so why do you think one individual with symptoms presents in one way versus somebody else in another way? I mean, here you're saying that it can present itself in so many different ways. I mean, 100 plus different symptoms.
Out of curiosity, have you thought why one individual would have x symptom versus another individual with the same kind of infection has y symptom?
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know that I have any buoyant insight to why people are so differently affected. There's some interesting research looking at least the different strains in Europe versus North America. We do see that, and of course, I'm going to forget off the top of my head, but the north american strain, I think, was more associated with joint pain, and the european strain was more associated with neurologic, or maybe it's the other way around. But they did see differences in the borrelia species itself on how it impacted people's symptoms. So I think what organism you get bit with may make some difference. I think your underlying susceptibility already probably is the biggest driving factor of how it actually manifests.
I'm sure if I tested everybody in New England, I'd bet my life that 70% of people probably have some antibodies against Lyme. They don't all get Lyme disease. So I really see this as an opportunistic infection, that when you're already disposed for whatever other reason. So is it that you've got poor detoxification pathways? Is that you've got a dysfunctional immune system? Is you've got underlying gut issues that haven't been addressed? I think all these other underlying things that we probably don't necessarily know probably dictate how it's going to manifest once you have that exposure.
[00:10:44] Speaker D: Hello, dear listeners. This is Doctor Michael Karlfeldt, your host of integrative Lyme Solutions. Today, I'm excited to share an exclusive opportunity from the Karlfeld center, where we blend healing power of nature with groundbreaking therapies to combat Lyme disease and its associated challenges. At the Karfeld center, we're not just fighting Lyme, we're revolutionizing the way it's treated. With cutting edge therapies like photodynamic therapy, full body ozone IV therapy, Silver IV's, brain rebalancing, autonomic response testing, laser energetic detoxification, and more. We aim to eradicate Lyme. Our approach is comprehensive, supporting your body's immune system, detoxification processes, hormonal balance, and mitochondrial health, ensuring a holistic path to recovery. Understanding Lyme disease and its impact is complex, which is why we're offering a free 15 minutes discovery call with one of our Lyme literate naturopathic doctors. This call is your first step towards understanding how we can personalize your healing journey, focusing on you as a whole person, not just your symptoms. Our team, led by myself, Doctor Michael Karlfilz, is here to guide you through your recovery with the most advanced diagnostic tools, individualized treatment plans, and supportive therapies designed to restore your health and vitality. Whether you're facing Lyme disease head on or seeking preventative strategies, we're committed to your wellness. Take the first step towards reclaiming your health. Visit
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[00:12:45] Speaker C: So it's almost then that, you know, you have obviously the type of infectious agent in addition to, like you're saying, what, what are your weaknesses as an individual? And what systems have you put on stress? I mean, like, in your case, you know, adrenals, obviously, and kind of pushing yourself and not being able to repair appropriately because you're kind of burning the candle on both ends. That just put you, along with infection, just put you that susceptible and vulnerable place.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for me, it was the perfect storm. I think had I gotten infected and I wasn't under the amount of stress at the time, I think my body would have been much more resilient, and it probably would have been the end of that. I think the rest of my immune system probably could have handled whatever the antibiotics didn't take care of, but that's not the way it was. A lot of stress and not sleeping and not eating well and all the other stuff. So I think for a lot of people, again, there's these underlying things that are there that we may or may not be cognizant of. But again, when you have that exposure, we saw this with COVID too, right? And why did some people get a sniffle and other people die? We had these very dramatic different reactions to what we'll say was relatively the same virus at any one given time. And I think to many degrees, Covid and Lyme paralleled each other in so many ways. And now that we're seeing all these long COVID patients that describe what every Lyme patient often has experienced, I think in some weird way, Covid was a great wake up call for Lyme disease because they were like, oh, you can get post infectious symptoms that just don't go away after the infection's gone. I think the whole Lyme community, I'm like, well, duh, hello. We've been clamoring about this for 30 plus years. And now that they recognize long Covid is a problem, I'm hopeful that that will open the door for the Lyme community and certainly researchers and government agencies that go, oh, yeah, this does happen, and maybe we should invest a little bit more in trying to figure this out.
[00:14:47] Speaker C: Yeah. And that has been, I know the frustration for a lot of Lyme patients is that they do the doxycycline, and because they did that treatment, now you're supposedly not having Lyme anymore because you've already done the treatment, so you got to be something else.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, this idea of post treatment Lyme syndrome, which is the CDC's official, you've had Lyme, you were treated, you don't have Lyme anymore.
It's just so nonsensical. Particularly the amount of research out there showing Monica embers at Tulane has demonstrated clearly that these persister cells exist. Up to 20% of these borrelia organisms are resistant to antibiotics. The minute you get bit, we know that it goes chronic, and the symptoms, again, don't drastically change for a lot of people from their initial exposure to, you know, many months later, even if they've been through antibiotic therapy. So why this is such a stretch and why we've had so many obstacles in getting, you know, research funding and more, again, government agencies to really look closely, I'm. I'm kind of baffled. And I think back, and if you're old enough, you know, remember the eighties when HIV came out? It was the same kind of thing. You know, we kind of ignored it. And it was many, many years before, you know, CDC and other government agencies recognize, oh, we actually have kind of a health crisis on our hand, we probably should do something about it. And again, I think it was a highly politically charged thing at the time. I don't know that that's drastically changed for whatever reasons. I can't begin to explain. This seems to be a bit of a political issue, but the research is pretty clear. And certainly when you look at even the CDC's own numbers, you know, they say we've got an estimated 476,000 new cases a year. That's new cases, never mind the number of people who are still living in, who are literally talking about millions and millions of people in the United States alone dealing with chronic Lyme disease. And I know the government started this tick borne disease working group, I think it was 2017. And as to date, they have done nothing, as far as I can tell, that's helpful in better diagnostics, better treatment strategies. You know, we're kind of doing the same old thing that we've done for literally the last 40 years.
I think the other thing, too, that just boggles my mind. And I like to talk about this because I think it's a good reminder. You know, if you consider, you know, most bacteria in your body replicate every ten to 20 minutes, Lyme replicates every one to 16 days, which is incredibly slow for bacteria. And yet if you get tuberculosis, mycobacterium tuberculosis, you get a triple antibiotic cocktail for nine to twelve months of heavy duty antibiotics. Well, tuberculosis replicates every 15 to 20 hours, so it's slow relative to every ten to 15 minutes. So why are we content giving people heavy duty antibiotics for a year, for TB, but we're content with giving Lyme patients two to three weeks of doxycycline, which, by the way, doesn't even kill the organism. Right. It only stops it from replicating. It's not bactericidal. Again, it just doesn't make a lot of biological sense. Yeah.
[00:17:55] Speaker C: And I agree with you, and it is fascinating to me.
And I'm wondering if, like, insurance companies or, I mean, there's got to be some financial reason why they are not wanting to acknowledge Lyme to its full extent and recognize the need for the longer therapies.
There's got to be some financial reason to that. I mean, that's the only thing I can think of, Casey.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Well, I would imagine that's part of it. You can imagine.
Who knows how many people really live with Lyme?
Let's say, just say it's 5 million people. It's probably at least that, if not more. We're a population of, I think, about 340 million people in the US now. There's probably at least 5 million, if not more, living with lime. Well, you can imagine the costs of, of, you know, doctor's visits, antibiotic therapy, potentially iv therapy. You know, all that adds up to millions, billions of dollars.
So I've got to believe there's at least some financial motivation for not covering this.
But again, it's, if you're really interested in helping people, you know, why not, you know, do the right thing and give people access to what they, they really need and. And open it up to other therapies that, you know, potentially do work. You know, I think we're seeing this a little bit in the cancer world where, you know, if you've got a cancer that doesn't seem to be treatable, you know, there's now an opportunity to access other things that, like, might work, and it seems reasonable. Like, hey, if we got something that's not working great, why not at least open it up to something that might be helpful, at least give people an opportunity to try something. But, you know, in the world that you and I live in, you know, for a lot of what we do, insurance has never really covered a lot of it anyway. They don't see the value in natural medicine, although we would argue it saves money, it saves time. It actually does become a cost savings for a lot of patients. And if you're an insurance company that wants to save money and increase profits, well, wouldn't you want people to go to the doctor less and use less expensive therapies?
[00:20:05] Speaker C: You would think so, yeah. You would think so.
Yeah. It always boggles my mind. So how, I'm curious, how have you seen, because you've been kind of in this climate for a long time, how have you seen it change for doctors? Because I know there are a lot of Lyme doctors in the past that are persecuted if they started treating Lyme or diagnosing Lyme. I mean, how do you feel that the climate has changed, or has it?
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think for the better. I think there's definitely better recognition nationally of Lyme disease. In fact, there was just an article that came out this last week. I can't remember. It was in a major. I don't know if it was Time magazine or Forbes. It was a major publication, recognizing that there is an epidemic in the United States. So the more press we get like that, the more recognition, I think, that helps both patients and doctors. I know several states, like Connecticut, actually passed legislation to protect doctors for treating Lyme disease. I believe New York also passed legislation. So slowly, painfully slowly, we're starting to see, I think, more acceptance that this is a problem. I'm hearing less just from my colleagues about medical board investigations and doctors being harassed. I think it still happens, and depending, again, where you are in the country, again, if you're in a state where Lyme isn't believed to be problematic, I think you're probably more at risk. But I think if you're out on the east coast and West coast, where Lyme is even recognized as being endemic, I was shocked. Again, I read this article, and for Everett, all these talked about is New England and central Midwest, Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, being endemic areas. And this article talked about how California, particularly northern California, Oregon, Washington, are becoming endemic. I'm like, right. So, you know, we're even seeing on the CDC's maps of, you know, tracking ticks. You can see that, you know, deer ticks, because of bird migration, is actually pushing inwards.
And so now we're seeing tick populations in areas that we didn't really used to think were endemic for deer ticks. So it's changing. Lyme's been reported in all 50 states, including Alaska and Hawaii. So you don't necessarily have to be in your hometown to get Lyme. People do travel, they do go elsewhere. And I've treated several patients from Australia, and the australian government says there's no Lyme disease in Australia at all. Apparently, the ticks can't swim that far. So they've flown here to the US to see me, and they'll test CDC positive for Lyme disease. Disease. And, you know, the government there kind of, you know, but again, I had one patient, she and her husband, they've traveled all over the world, Europe, you know, parts of Europe that are well known to have Lyme disease, parts of the US. So, you know, again, it's not even really about where you live, per se. It's where has your exposure potentially been? But again, I think the climate is changing for the better, and we are getting a little bit more national recognition. And I think, again, that's going to make, ultimately make it easier for patients and doctors alike to get better Lyme care.
[00:23:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. And that way, more doctors would then pursue, I mean, recognize that it is an issue. Recognize that when symptoms are not resolving in the normal fashion, than to dig a little deeper and look at these type of things with the knowledge you have now, what would you have done when you got bitten? I mean, what would you have, you know, you got bittenden. And what would you immediately done outside of just the doxycycline at that time?
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Well, I definitely would have done a lot more for my diet and lifestyle. That was, I think, a big part of it. Uh, I would have added a lot of herbs into the mix. I would have done it for a much longer period of time than I did, because I, again, I just did the three weeks of standard doxy. I would have, you know, added a lot more herbs, stayed on it probably for two months or longer.
I would have. Yeah, I think I would have addressed that in a very different way at the time. But again, I was still a relatively new doctor and certainly new to Lyme, and I did what I thought, what I learned, at least in medical school, was the right thing. And again, I kind of got tricked, because again, four days into treatment, I felt perfectly fine. All my symptoms had completely gone away. And I'm like, okay, I'm in the clear. You know, I heard about these no chronic Lyme patients, but I, you know, I did find it early. I probably got treated within a matter of probably a few days of the bite because the symptoms came on very quickly. So it wasn't like most of the people I see where often they don't get treatment for many weeks or months after the fact. Mine was pretty early, but again, it was just the perfect storm.
[00:24:54] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And if you don't mind sharing, what would be some of your kind of favorite herbs that you would throw in at that time? I mean, would it be like cat's claw and cryptolepsis?
[00:25:07] Speaker B: I think I would have done cat's claw. I actually responded beautifully when I eventually dig it on Artemisia. Artemisia was incredibly good. And there's a lot of research of artemisia as an immune modulator.
I probably would have done cryptolepis. Um, I've had great success with Banderall as well, Bandarol, Kumanda. So I probably would have thrown those all on board in addition to the doxycycline. And, you know, these herbs are great, too, because not only do they target the organism, and, you know, at the time, as I think about, I was only tested for Lyme. I was never tested for co infection because I had the bullseye rash. So, no, no one bothered to do anything else. But, you know, the doxy only covers, again, that very narrow window of, you know, maybe lime, but it doesn't cover a lot of other things. So were there other things there that were lurking in the background that I didn't know about? Well, the herbs potentially would have covered that. You know, doctor Zhang at, uh, Johns Hopkins, you know, they've been looking at different plant extracts on lime and bartonella and babesia. And it's kind of interesting that you do see a lot of these herbs that cover all of it. You know, japanese knotweed, cryptolepis, chinese skull cap, artemisia to a certain degree. So I think having those kind of herbs would have covered a broader base than doxy. Plus, they're anti inflammatory, they help promote better blood flow. They can break up little micro clots. Uh, probably would have added more enzyme therapy in, um. But, yeah, I guess that's the beauty of hindsight, right?
[00:26:34] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's just nice for people out there that, you know, when you get into that situation, you want to be able to have something. What can I do quickly?
Because you may not be able to get to a provider like yourself immediately. So then you can jump onto something and then search for the appropriate help. In addition to obviously reading your book, that will kind of get them going. So in your book, what are the five kind of five steps or five point plan that you're talking about that you feel that this is the foundation, the basis of therapy that you should do?
[00:27:14] Speaker B: Well, step one is really about gut health. I mean, the gut really is the cornerstone of health. And considering that up to 80% of your immune function stems from the gut, if your gut isn't functioning well, it's going to be hard for your immune system to do what we want it to do. So if you've got chronic constipation, diarrhea, sibo gas, bloating, if you're not really digesting and assimilating everything you're eating, you know, we're losing the benefit of this innate, you know, system to fight infection. So I think it's really important that we focus on the gut first. Plus, whatever we're going to put into the system, we want to make sure the gut can handle that. So that's really step one. Step two is really about diet. Again, what you put in your mouth matters. And so it's, you know, eating clean, organic as much as possible. I really promote an alkaline diet for people. And again, I didn't come up with an alkaline diet. There books go back 50, 60 years about it. But if you look at how our body functions, if you look at cell physiology, you know, your skin, your stomach, your bladder are very acidic. That helps protect against outside invaders. But the rest of your body is pretty much alkaline. Your blood slightly alkaline. Your intracellular ph is alkaline. So all the enzyme and systems work best in an alkaline ph. So as you eat food, when it breaks down in your body, it can be alkaline forming, it can be acid forming, or it can be kind of neutral. So why don't we have you eat a lot of stuff that's alkaline forming.
So it's not about the ph of the food. Like lemon juice is very acidic, but when you drink lemon juice, it makes your body very alkaline. So it's not about the ph of the food, it's really about how it breaks down your body. And by the way, I get this argument. Every now and then, people go, well, it doesn't change blood ph. I'm like, you're right, it doesn't. You know, your blood is very tightly regulated, but it does change cellular ph, and that's what we're shooting for. So I encourage people to eat a lot of foods, or alkaline farming, and it's a lot of, you know, vegetables. So people are eating a mostly plant based diet. And then there's, I sort of break it down to three categories. So category one, eat as much as you like. Category two are foods you can eat, but maybe limit it to about 25% of your intake. And these are foods that are kind of neutral, maybe even slightly acidic. And this is really all animal protein and a lot of fruit. And then category three are foods I really try to recommend staying away from because they're all very acid forming. And it's mostly junk food and processed food and dairy products and things like that. And people can check their urine ph, you know, 30 to 60 minutes after eating, go get some cheap ph paper from the pharmacy. 30, 60 minutes after eating, go pee on the strip. We want to see your urine ph, 7.2 to 8.0. And that gives us a pretty good idea metabolically if we're on track. So that's really step two. Step three is about targeting the bug. And so that's, in my case, using mostly herbs. And in the book, I kind of go through a lot of the herbs that I've used. And the good news with herbs is that we've got so many different plants that work well for Lyme and these co infections. And, you know, Doctor Lee Cowden, a lot of people know the Cowden protocol.
I was at a lecture he was at years ago, and he kept talking about this herb. He goes, well, this is a keep herb. This is a keep herb. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. He says, well, it kills everything except people. And I'm like, well, you know, you're right. The nice thing about a lot of plants, because they're antibacterial, they're antiviral, they're antifungal, anti parasitic, they do cover a broader base. So I like that fact, again, that with a lot of these plants, you know, even if we don't know that you might have a co infection, there's a good chance we would cover it anyway and less detriment to your gut microbiome so step three is about targeting the bug, and we're mixing and matching herbs depending on whether it's lime or lime and bartonella, lime, babesia, whatever that combination is for you. Step four is about really getting toxicity under control. I would argue that most people with Lyme have some element of toxicity and or are poor detoxifiers. And so when they get this build of toxins, that also makes them feel bad. So it's minding, you know, what you use in and around your home. Blade plugins and Windex and 409 and all these toxic chemicals that might have bioaccumulate and make it harder for you to get rid of junk. And, of course, mold mycotoxins. You know, there's so much clinical overlap, and mycotoxicity and Lyme disease, they can be very difficult to distinguish. So I just talk about, you know, how do you kind of take a checklist of your home environment, your work environment, maybe for kids, their school environment, and, you know, how can we best manage, you know, adding more junk to our daily load? And then step five, finally, is really about lifestyle. So this is the sleep part, making sure that you're getting good quality sleep, because, again, that's when your tissue repairs, that's when your body detoxifies. All this good stuff that's built into our DNA generally happens when you're getting good quality sleep. It's about managing your stress. You know, how do you do that? Because living with a chronic illness is stressful. And, you know, whether it's working with a therapist, doing art, finding the things that bring joy to your life, I think all that's important. And then just, you know, having some element of movement. I've seen people who are pretty disabled, but there's usually something you can do. And again, for me, when I was really exhausted, it was just stretching. That's all I could muster up. So if it's stretching, yoga, tai chi, swimming, whatever it is for you, that at least get some movement, because that's moving your lymph, it's moving your blood. And I think it's just good for our mental well being. You know, we're designed as humans to. To move, and so just incorporating some movement every day of your life can be helpful. So, as we kind of stack each of those pieces together, again, hopefully it lays out a roadmap for people that they, bit by bit, can start getting control over this, you know, sometimes debilitating disease.
[00:32:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. And. And the. It's so important, I think, for people to hear that it's not just about attacking the bug. You know, it is about all these things around it that become so crucial. And, you know, if you don't eat right, if you don't, you know, sleep right, if you don't live right, then that, like, in your case, then these infections, they are opportunistic, so they take advantage of your system being at a weak state. So then in addition to then maybe bringing in the antimicrobial, then to really buffer up your system with healthy living, healthy eating, healthy thinking, healthy movement becomes so important.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:33:36] Speaker C: And the gut, because here, obviously, to go after the bugs, you want to make sure that your immune system is up and running. And people often forget how much immune system involvement that is part of the gut. And by not addressing the gut, what then happens with inflammatory signaling, with your ability to fight infection and with energy production and so forth?
[00:34:06] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, I'm a big fan of tests, not guests. I do a lot of stool testing on my patients just to see, you know, is there a change in your gut microbiome? Again, I see a lot of people who've already been on antibiotics that have likely caused some kind of change. Is there yeast overgrowth? Are you dealing with an underlying parasite, or again, are you digesting your food? Is there a lot of inflammation in the gut? I. All of this gives us useful information that we can really figure out. Then what does your body need to get over that hump? You know, I just see so many people that just start, you know, either self prescribing or maybe another practitioner just get this laundry list of supplements and, you know, everything's got its place, but I'm kind of in the camp of less is more. You know, if you're already kind of struggling to get stuff in, if you're already having a lot of GI issues anyway, and everything you take by mouth has to go through your gut, I think. And sometimes in our best efforts, we accidentally tip the scales the other direction and start kind of forcing the body to have to deal with all this very well intended stuff. So if we can streamline it and be very selective about what you are taking, not to mention that most of this is out of pocket, it's expensive, and insurance isn't covering a dime. So if we can minimize the financial impact, and a lot of Lyme patients I'm working with, you know, they're the not working. They're disabled, you know, they're not necessarily in a financial place where spending, you know, $1,000 a month on treatment is possible so, again, I at least try my best to keep it as simple as possible and really target the things we think are going to move the needle the most.
[00:35:40] Speaker C: And for patients diagnosed, or maybe not even diagnosed, but suspecting Lyme, they're coming to you, how would you describe their journey? What would that look like? When you kind of give them a vision as to, this is what we're going to do, and this is kind of how you're going to feel, and this is how long it's going to take. But how do you explain that journey to them?
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Well, if you've ever been to Disneyland, there's a ride called Mister Toad's wild ride, and it's a little bit like that where you're on the path and you see me doing pretty well, and then there's a sharp turn quickly and you go in another direction. And, you know, the Lyme journey for most people is a bit of a roller coaster. And I think it probably has more to do with the replication cycle of the organism. And if you think about it, you got a very slow growing organism, and all the organisms aren't replicating at the same cycle, but at some point, a lot of them are going to be in sync. And probably when that time happens, when a lot of them are replicating, that's when the immune system is probably going to be most active. And if you're already in treatment, that's probably where there's going to be more die off, because we'll see people every three weeks, every four weeks, every six weeks. There's some kind of pattern to when they start to feel worse, and they're like, nothing changed. My treatments the same, my diet's the same, my sleep, nothing's changed. I don't get it. And I feel so much worse. And it happened to me, too, and it used to make me crazy. And then I finally realized, oh, okay, this is transient, it's not going to last forever. And it started making sense to me. I'm like, well, it's probably just when there's more, there's more stuff to kill that we get more of that, that Herx and die off reaction, and we just need to help people kind of get through that transient moment. And again, there's a lot of things we can do with herbs and anti inflammatories to mitigate that, but I think that's part of that journey. It's a bit maddening, though, again, when you feel like you're doing everything right and you get these little setbacks. So to take three steps forward, one step back, is a very common scenario with Lyme. And I tell people like, you know, six to 18 months of Lyme treatment is common. I had one patient, literally, I've treated over 8000 Lyme patients. I've had one patient that, you know, had, you know, she, she was pretty debilitated. She came in, she had a lot of neurologic symptoms. In my head, I'm thinking, man, this is going to be a long process. But I put her on a series of chinese herbs. A month later, all her symptoms were 100% gone. And then she never had a relapse. That was it. I followed her for many years. She's been doing great, that it was kind of a one and done thing. And I think that's a very, you know, this is the asterisk, you know, results, not typical. So, you know, once in a while you get cases like that. But I think for most people, again, because there's so many things going on in people's lives, and again, it's managing the stress and the diet and this and that, that. It's a constant set of moving pieces that we're trying to evaluate. So it's a realistic expectation to have those ups and downs. It's not good or bad. It's just kind of the nature of the beast. But again, the, what should my expectation over the course of treatment is? Once we start treatment, I expect to see improvement in two months. For me, two months is the cutoff. If you get to two months and you don't see any change in the way you're feeling, we need to switch gears and do something different, because clearly we're not. We're not hitting the right thing for you. I've seen people been in treatment for six months and longer with the same thing. There's been no improvement. I'm like, why are you still taking this? It's not, it's not doing anything. And somebody's waiting again for the magic to happen. If you're really on the right track, you should know within probably a two months time period.
[00:39:14] Speaker C: And so during that two months, I mean, are you then, because you can also have you do the two months and you feel worse during those two months. So is that a sign that we are doing something, but maybe just a little bit too fast, or should we still kind of change direction at that time? Doctor Justin?
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Yeah. No. If it's truly a Herxheimer reaction, a true Hertz reaction will probably last no more than seven to ten days at the most. If it's lasting longer than that. That's not a Herx reaction. That's you having a problem with something you're taking. That's you having an adverse reaction to whatever's in your mix. Again, for a true Hertz reaction, you feel crappy for maybe a couple of days, up to maybe ten days, and then you feel a lot better on the back end. But, yeah, I've seen people who've been on the same treatment from other practitioners, and like, yeah, I'm on this treatment for three months, and I feel horrible, and I keep getting worse. I'm like, yeah, you're. You're clearly having a problem with something you take. And, you know, this is, again, part of the complexity of Lyme treatment is that, you know, we never know as practitioners what you're going to respond to, what you might be sensitive to. I would argue that most of my patients are probably a bit more sensitive than people who don't have Lyme for whatever reason. And so sometimes a little goes a long way. I mean, I've had people do one drop of cemento, and they start herxing, you know, one drop of cat's claw, so everyone's a little bit different. And, you know, that's why I, again, like to try and go in, ease into it, start with low amounts of things. Make sure you tolerate it first. Uh, because the worst situation get in is that you're just taking something you don't tolerate. You're actually sensitive to it. It's making you worse. And I don't want you staying on that path for weeks and weeks when it's actually working against you. So we have to establish tolerance first. Once we've established tolerance, fine. Then we can increase the dose to meet whatever your body needs.
[00:41:02] Speaker C: Awesome. Well, doctor Ingalls has been. Been amazing. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking this time. This. This is. You do so much for the community.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: Great. Thanks so much, Michael.
[00:41:14] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:41:22] Speaker A: The information this podcast is for educational purposes only, and it's not designed to diagnose or treat any disease. I hope this podcast impacted you as it did me. Please subscribe so that you can be notified when new episodes are released. There's some excellent shows coming up that you do not want to miss. If you're enjoying these podcasts, please take a moment to write a review. And please don't keep this information to yourself. Share them with your family and friends. You never know what piece of information that will transform their lives for past episodes, and powerful information on how to conquer Lyme. Go to integrativelimesolutions.com and an additional powerful resource, limestream.com. for Lyme support and group discussions, join Lyme Conquerors mentoring Lyme warriors on Facebook. If you'd like to know more about the cutting edge integrative of Lyme Therapies MyCenter offers, please visit thecarlfeldcenter.com. thank you for spending this time with us, and I hope to see you at our next episode of Integrative Lyme Solutions with Doctor Karlfeldt.
