[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome back to Integrative Lyme solutions with Doctor Karl felt. I am so excited about the show that we have ahead of us. We have some phenomenal information that could save lives.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: I am Doctor Michael Karlfeld, and with me, I have my co host, Tanya Hobo.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: You're gonna need to tune in to what's going on today. The information is jam packed, so. Yeah, don't step away.
[00:00:29] Speaker C: So excited. Let's go ahead and get this started.
Welcome to Integrative Line Solutions with doctor Carl Feldt. And today we are joined by a special guest who is actually located down kind of in my neck of the woods down in San Rafael, California. And lo and behold, I did not know anything about him when I was in the area, because I did not know I had Lyme disease. I just knew I was sick.
It's an honor to meet you. We're super excited to have doctor Eric Gordon on with us today to chat all about Lyme disease, all the little co infections, all the fun stuff that goes along with it. Welcome.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. It's especially fun because I said I really admire Doctor Garfield's work. It's always nice to have other doctors who realize that there's just a wide expanse of need in the Lyme community, and it's not just Lyme disease. I mean, that is, as I were talking before we started, is that people make that error of thinking that it's just kill the bug.
And that's probably a fine thing to do if you have recent onset line, but, you know, but if it's year 2510 and more, it's your body response to the bug that we have to work with. And maybe along the way, killing is important, but that's usually not the main focus. I mean, you know, some people with neuro Lyme, that can be helpful, but it still doesn't usually get you all out of the woods. There's a lot more that has to be done. So I'm just glad to be here and talk about all things. Um, you know, actually, I'd say chronic, chronic illness, because to me, Lyme is the great masquerader for so many people who have no idea they have Lyme.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: And. And you, you just, you're so. I mean, you've been working with Lyme patients for a long, long time, and you're even. I know you're. You're launching a summit here just very soon as well. So that, that's something that people can jump on and look and learn. A whole lot more from so many different doctors.
You're hosting that summit. So I'm excited myself to get to tune into that, but expand a little bit when you're saying that it's so much more than the bug, because people, they do exactly that. They identify the bug, and now let's kill the bug. And, you know, what else should they consider? I mean, what. What are some of the other areas that they need to go into?
[00:03:14] Speaker B: Ah, well, as a, you know, as a regular md of killing the bug was the attraction, because that's how we're trained. You know, you have a problem, fix the problem. But I said, chronic illness is not the problem. It's multiple and often at low levels. But so the first one that everyone has to think about is toxicity. I know it's boring for a lot of people. Nobody wants to hear about it. I myself hate it because it's not my nature. My nature is like doctor fix, and this is a slower, more laborious process. But what's happening when you don't get rid of Lyme, and Lyme, I mean, because they said maybe get rid of is the wrong word, when your body hasn't learned to live with it in a quiet way, you know, and pardon me for taking a right turn right now for a minute, but I'm going to. Okay. Because the issue is, it would be best if you can eradicate Lyme from your body.
As I say, that that's an ideal. But we have, you know, if we look, we've co evolved with billions of bugs. I mean, millions, who knows? Billions, but tons of bugs. And a lot of the ones that we consider infections like the herpes virus families, the Epstein Barr and HH six, and cytomegalovirus, and also molds. We co evolved with these. We've been together for however long we've been on the. We've existed.
So you're not going to get rid of them. You just have to learn your immune system to keep them in check without overreacting. So it's a question of a balanced immune response is the key. And I think the same thing happens with Lyme.
Some of the co infections, Bartonella and Babesia, maybe we have to really get rid of them completely. But again, most of the damage that's caused in people with chronic illness is the imbalanced or over exuberant immune response to hosting these bugs. And the reason that the immune response is not balanced often is because of underlying toxicity or earlier infections that have each one in their desire to keep the body a nicer place to live in can change our immune system a little bit. And so we wind up with an immune system that's maybe overly programmed to what people call the th two or the allergy kind of response. And so you get a lot of people who have lots of things, and they wind up developing what's now mcas. And big deal. Really important, if you don't really deal with the quote unquote mcas or your mast cells activate it too easily, you're going to have these quote unquote terrible hxes, which I remember in the beginning. In the beginning, I mean, about 25 years ago, when I started to treat Lyme, everybody thought the herx was a great thing. We're going to have a, you know, because that meant that you were, you were, your body was responding.
But we, early on, as we started to get more aggressive in our therapies, we started to see that, wait a minute, the herx was fine if it was transient, but when you're still herks and a week later, that's not a good thing, you know, and that's how I think.
[00:06:51] Speaker C: Doctor Gordon, can I stop you there for just a second? Because I like that you say that because a herx is okay, right?
I listen to a lot of patients out there and they're like, in a herx for a month, and I'm like, that's not okay. Like, talk to your doctor. It's okay to feel like you're taking steps backwards when you're killing things off, but not like that. You know, I'm like. And that took me a while to understand because I initially was in a hurks, I swear, for like a year. Like, I didn't know. I didn't know any better. Right. I just thought I had to just be completely miserable in order to get better. And I just don't think that's the case. And I think you're kind of reiterating that right there.
[00:07:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's what's so exciting about the work that I know both of our clinics do is we work on trying to balance the immune response by. And the first, you know, I mean, well, sometimes you have to lower those mast cells down and maybe use herbs or medicines to do that. But really that first step is in helping the body clear some of the garbage, some of the debris, the toxin load. And I really think that, you know, today, in today's world, there's just no question.
I had to walk into a 711 about two weeks ago. I hadn't been in one in a long time. And I was just appalled. I mean, I just, I mean, I, I could not believe my eyes. It was like, you know, it wasn't a big one, but it was like aisles of just nothing that people should eat, or at least not more than once a year, you know, I mean, it was.
And then, you know, and then the whole cold case, I was just alcohol and caffeine.
Anyway, so if that's how you're treating your body, okay, the beauty of the body is it can tolerate a lot of punishment, okay? But when you add an infection on top of a system that's operating kind of at its, its final level of compensation, you then fall apart. And you fall hard because you have been depriving your system of the necessary nutrients, antioxidants. I mean, you know, just the ability to detox. Your glutathione is going to be in the toilet when, when you're eating garbage every day, you know, so it's, that's what we're, what we're dealing with. And the thing is, a lot, most of the patients I see come by the time they see me, they're eating pristine diets for years. So that's not their original problem. But unfortunately, you know, the general american diet, even if it's not a 711, even if you're really eating, you know, basically good food, but, you know, glyphosate is in everything.
You know, you're eating meat and things that have been raised on all kinds of antibiotics, with all kinds of bad bugs that are creating all kinds of stress hormones in the animals. I mean, so it's hard to rebuild that. And the great part is, is that when you're basically healthy, you can get away with it.
But once you start getting ill, you're called to a higher level, and especially if you're a sensitive being. I think the worst part about the chronic illnesses that I'm seeing today is that it really is. I don't want to elevate people, but some, well, the best and the brightest, because these are the people who are sensitive. They feel so much. They're the ones in their families who knew when everybody was angry and pretending that everything was okay.
They taste more, they smell more, you know, music is more sensitive to them, was more clear to them. And that very level of having a, well, a beautifully tuned nervous system is a blessing for a life, but is a curse when you get sick.
[00:11:08] Speaker D: Hello, dear listeners, this is Doctor Michael Karlfeldt, your host of integrative Lyme Solutions. Today I'm excited to share an exclusive opportunity from the Karlfeld center, where we blend healing power of nature with groundbreaking therapies to combat Lyme disease and its associated challenges at the Karfeld center were not just fighting Lyme, were revolutionizing the way its treated. With cutting edge therapies like photodynamic therapy, full body ozone iv therapy, silver ivs, brain rebalancing, autonomic response testing, laser energetic detoxification and more, we aim to eradicate Lyme. Our approach is comprehensive, supporting your body's immune system, detoxification processes, hormonal balance and mitochondrial health, ensuring a holistic path to recovery. Understanding Lyme disease and its impact is complex, which is why we're offering a free 15 minutes discovery call with one of our Lyme literate naturopathic doctors. This call is your first step towards understanding how we can personalize your healing journey, focusing on you as a whole person, not just your symptoms. Our team, led by myself, doctor Michael Karlthalz, is here to guide you through your recovery with the most advanced diagnostic tools, individualized treatment plans and supportive therapies designed to restore your health and vitality. Whether you're facing Lyme disease head on or seeking preventative strategies, we're committed to your wellness. Take the first step towards reclaiming your health. Visit
[email protected] or call us at 208-338-8902 to schedule your free discovery call at the Carlfeld center. We believe in healing naturally, effectively and holistically. Thank you for tuning in into integrative Lyme solution with doctor Karl Feldt. Remember, true health is not just the absence of disease, it's achieving the abundance of vitality. Let's discover yours too, together.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: So how do you. Because a lot of these people, I mean, they come to you. You said they have pristine diets, and frequently in that journey, they come and say, well, I can only eat these foods. It's a very kind of a narrow group of foods because they are so overreactive to everything and they're so frustrated. They would like to be able to move through that. What are some of the strategies that you use to kind of guide them through that hurdle?
[00:13:40] Speaker C: Oh, I love that question, doctor K, because it seems more and more lately I hear that all the time on social media that they have like two foods in their diet. They're like, I'm malnourished. I feel like I'm going to die. I can't eat anything. I have a reaction to everything. I can't take a supplement, I have a reaction. And I'm thinking to myself, is it like an actual reaction, or is it like a herx, or is it like a. Yeah. So I know that that's a huge thing for a lot of, a lot of people that are struggling with Lyme. So I love that question.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the most important thing is we have to get through that somehow, because I remember a patient, it was a long time, about 15 years ago, this woman came in, and I saw her once or twice, and then she wound up in the hospital with pelvic fractures just because she was so osteoporotic. She was in her forties, but she had been living on such a ridiculous restricted diet for years, I mean, for a decade. And, you know, so it's frightening because.
And so this is what I call, or the problem of pickup sticks, because it's different for different people. I don't know which thing I'm going to move that's going to allow someone to expand their diet.
And obviously, mast cell is a big one. Sometimes we can use anything we can do to help lower that inflammation in the gut. Doesn't have to be the mast cells, but that's an easy way because usually gut inflammation is keeping that gut immune system on high level. But sometimes people are so wired, or at least that immune system is so elevated and they're nervous system is so wired, that we have to work on the nervous system first. We have to make people, because, really, when your brain doesn't feel safe on some level, nothing does. And if food, if everything in your environment is going to cause you nausea, headache, or brain fog, or worse, you know, more pain, all, I mean, I don't know what's much worse, actually, than nausea, but brain fog, you know, it's gonna. It creates this place of heightened self defense. Okay. And I don't want to take. And one of my favorite subjects is the concept of the cell danger response, which is basically your body trying to protect yourself. That's the thing. And the brain controls your immune system up to a point, you know, like when your guts really inflamed. Yeah. Your. Your brain isn't necessarily going to make it better, but if the vagus nerve begins to send some quieting signals, it will help. Now it's being overwhelmed. If your guts an absolute mess because more signals are going back to the brain. But still, if we can get that brain to quiet down, and sometimes we can get our little old cortex that, you know, the thinking part to begin to help instead of hinder, because.
And this is the tricky part, because everybody has a different place where they can hear.
You have to learn how to relax because many people take that as an insult.
Okay, is that somehow they're not working hard enough or doing enough, but whatever you're doing isn't working. So we have to find something different. I think that's the bottom line. It's not that you haven't, you know, you've tried the DNRS and the Gupta program and now there's the reorgan program, which I like a lot, you know, you know, there's, you know, I said there's all these programs, including like Alex Howard has a nice one from England that I think works really well at helping out your, your underlying triggers, emotional triggers. But that's what it comes down to, unfortunately, you know, because when people are that sensitive, some of the energetic stuff doesn't work for them. You know, we also like using, you know, red light and various, I like the FSM. There's lots of different devices that can talk to our body and really gentle cranial work. But we have that same problem is that the people who tell you they're down to two foods, any one of those external things that I mentioned has a chance of flaring them.
And so it's a question of just having, having people willing to try tiny and be willing to understand that we know that they're sensitive and they're going to blow up easily and we just have to find the tiniest thing that will work. And I don't know, you know, and ah, but here's an initial thing. Many times the way in can be minerals, which is, again, something that as an MD was hard for me to get, you know, because MDs think that you only have mineral deficiencies, you know, when you're an alcoholic or having, you know, you're just terrible, you know, but when we're inflamed, we're just not absorbing and we're using more.
And that seems to be the thing that I have learned actually from, you know, starting with Doctor Anderson, especially from Doctor Parpia over who are naturopaths, that if we replace the minerals, we often get the system to begin to relax. And I mean, so sometimes the iv route has allowed us to get people back and not by doing fancy things, just by very boring minerals and amino acids can begin to get the nervous system quiet down. And then if we're lucky, tiny doses of phosphatidylcholine, which helps the cell membranes, you know. But again, with people who are super sensitive, we're using tiny doses of things, not full doses.
So the best way in is if we can teach the person to relax. But if everything freaks you out because you're so depleted, we have to go the way of supporting the body.
And I said, it's not a straight line. It's not like, well, you need just this. It's usually a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a lot of love and, you know, and again, and sunlight, if that's available. Grounding is another thing that. Again, as a doctor, when people first told me about grounding, I thought, okay, but amazingly powerful for people who are super sensitive is to just stand in the dirt. You don't have to. You don't have to do a lot. I mean, you have to have dirt and you have to be warm enough. But that does work, and it can begin to relax your nervous system. Dirt and sun are probably the best, simplest medicines. Unfortunately, there's all those people who. A little bit of sunlight and a little extra heat, that will set them off. So we're back to dirt.
[00:20:40] Speaker C: But, you know, I think the biggest takeaway of what you're saying is that there's hope. It's, you know, so many of these people, like, really, truly think because they can't do anything, they can't eat anything, that they are going to die, that there is no one out there that can help them. And it really is heartbreaking hearing them say this. So I love, again, that you asked this question, because it's so important from what I see out there that so many people anymore are super, super sensitive. And, yes, you know, small little starts, right? And it is. I get that there's on high alert. They're petrified. I was petrified, and I wasn't sensitive. But just going through, you know, this whole journey, it's. It's not easy. And so I can't even begin to imagine if. I mean, I was told by my initial Lyme doctor, you know, I couldn't eat certain foods, and that was okay. It wasn't fun. I didn't like it, but I couldn't imagine if I just couldn't eat them, like, if they made me sick or I had these reactions, like, I just. I don't know, my heart just breaks for, you know, anybody that goes through this journey, but especially those that are just so sensitive to everything.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it is difficult, and, you know, and it's a dance. And the hope part is the hardest because, you know, so many people have tried so many things. I mean, that's why I get upset when doctors often say, well, it's all, you know, you're giving them placebos and they're just nice to them and that's where they're getting better. And I say, but these people have spent, you know, $200,000 on placebos.
And so when something does work, I don't think it's a placebo. They have put their heart and souls in many things, you know, but it's finding what's going to work for them. And that's.
How do you say that?
I'm still looking for the test that's going to really give me that answer, you know, I'm seeing doctor Garfield smile at that. You know, all of us would love to find that. You know, I mean, and that's why we try, you know, we use, you know, different techniques from. From different approaches, you know, from, you know, chinese medicine, the German, I'm not sure the german homeopathic tradition. And, you know, they can be helpful sometimes in finding the thing that maybe you will tolerate. But unfortunately, you just got to keep trying and know that while you're breathing, um, there's hope. There truly is, is because, like, there are.
These diseases, you know, are almost never fatal.
I mean, again, almost. I mean, there are some rare cases of Lyme can do that to us, but, you know, um, what happens? People kill themselves. I mean, that's the, that's the. I mean, that's the unfortunate, um. You know, when I look over the years that I've been practicing, um, I can really only think of one or two patients who've actually died from this process. And actually, the last one who I think passed away was someone who, um, had, uh, a severe cranial cervical instability. That's for one of those weird things where things to think about when people are sensitive to everything and they can't stand up and they can't talk and they can't, you know, the cranial cervical instability, I mean, again, most of us, a lot of people have a little bit of it, but some people have it so severe that they really do need surgery. And in those people, it's life saving. But we had one patient who I'm, you know, doctor Parpi and I are positive that that's what she had. And we didn't recognize it. It was before we were aware of it. This was years ago, and she wound up dying at a young age in the hospital.
And, you know, and it probably was Bartonella. I mean, they did find some Bartonella in her brain, but it was the cranial cervical instability that set her up for just the inability to take in nutrition and to be able to function at all and move.
And so there's, so let me digress. One of the things is that when you're not getting better, that's when you have to be willing to tell your doctor, spend some time and let me to do research on you because this is something that I'm reaching this point in life when I realized that the medical model of, like, you come to see me and I have the answer and that's the exchange, okay? That doesn't work in this illness. And I've killed myself for 20 years trying to do that. But you wind up, you finish the day and then you go home and you're trying to read and look stuff up and make sense because you heard something that someone said that rings a bell, but you don't know enough to be sure.
And I'm realizing as I see sicker, because, you know, what happens is you've been around longer, you get the sicker patients. What I'm trying, what I'm changing now is letting people know, no, I'm going to talk to you, but then you're also going to pay me because I'm going to take half an hour, an hour, 2 hours, and I'm going to talk to other doctors. I'm going to write emails, I'm going to look things up because I don't know what to do for you. I know generally what to do, but there's something about your unique biochemistry.
I can look at what I know about the test results that came back, but they smell like you've got an odd immune thing and that's not in the book. And if I send you to the immunologist, they don't care because this imbalance in your immune system doesn't fit a disease and isn't going to kill you.
Okay? But the problem we face today is the immunologists don't know because we're learning more. Immunology changes day by day, week by week, and we keep learning and have new tests, but then we have to learn how to use them in you.
And so it's a new model. I don't think it's a new model, but it's one that I'm finally adapting because I just can't, I'm old and I can't keep doing this, you know? So it's that model of people have to pay the doctor to actually do the work to learn for them because we're treating you, not 30 other patients. Now, hopefully what I learned is gonna help a few other people, too, but I don't know. Anyway, you were about to say something.
[00:27:22] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, we can't expect you guys to know everything. I mean, we can't even get a blood test that will give us an accurate diagnosis. Right? Like. So how do we expect you doctors to know this? But what I appreciate, coming from a patient perspective is that you're willing to take that time. You're not. You're not okay with throwing us in that same little pool with everybody, that one of these ten things are gonna work for you. And if it doesn't, then you're hopeless. There's no hope for you. So, yes, we are willing to pay our doctors to take the time to learn to help us. It's the doctors that dismiss us that we're not okay with.
[00:28:05] Speaker B: No, and that. Well, that's. Yeah, the dismissing. I understand. Because when you. To be fair to your doctor, though, um, I started. I did what I call regular medicine for about ten years. And then in 92, I started, you know, I just moved over to, like. You know, I was interested in chronic fatigue. I just. I was always interested in what things that didn't make sense. I just always believed. I think the thing that I believed my patients, because as a doctor, you are semi trained to not believe your patients, okay? When you're. Because you. You do your early training in the hospital, a lot of that time is in emergency rooms. And if you're in a big city emergency room, there are a lot of drug abusers and people who are just gaming the system.
Okay? And that colors your perspective. Okay? Because you have people who are coming in and lying to you.
But that's not what happens in the real world when you're in your practice. I mean, there will be the always odd person who comes in and has a reason, is trying to get something, but, you know, but 99% of your patients just want to come in and want advice because they want to get well, and you have to. And if you believe them, it's easy. But because of. Of the early medical training to, like, if you don't understand how that person can have that complaint. Like, if I'm like, very simple, um, you come in and tell the doctor, you know, my shoulder has been killing me, but, you know, two weeks ago, my left knee, I could barely stand on it. Okay, well, that makes no sense to a regular doctor. Now, we see that all the time with Lyme disease. I mean, that's like, one, you know, Doctor Horowitz has made those lists for people of, like, you know, how do you know? You have, you know, tick borne disease, and that's one of them, is that when you have joint pains that move around and stay for a while and then go away, it's a good hint, because regular diseases don't usually do that. So. But my point is that when the regular doctor hears that, it doesn't make sense to what he was taught.
He stops listening, he stops taking you seriously. And it's a shame. It's not because they're bad and not because they don't want to take care of you. It's just how they've been trained.
[00:30:26] Speaker C: And, you know, and I know that I try hard not to knock these traditional doctors because it's all about your tools in your toolbox, which, you know, but what I didn't know, and I'm just now learning, is that. Yeah. What you're saying about these doctors working in the emergency rooms. Yeah. You have, like, the drug seekers or the, you know, the people that are not being honest with you, and you, as a lyme patient who goes into the doctor and says exactly what you just said, doctor Gordon, last week I couldn't walk. My legs hurt so bad. They're fine today, but my arms, I can't bend them. Like, we kind of sound crazy. I get that. And we can't explain it as it's happening to us. And so when we say it to a doctor that's been trained and worked around people, you know, that what's. There's this phrase that the bad people ruin it for the good ones, right? Like these bad people that come in and lie to these doctors. It gives us a bad rap when. When truly we just have this disease that just. That just simply doesn't make sense.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it doesn't make sense to how we were trained because, you know, chronic, it's. And people have to remember, this is a long tradition. I mean, in the fifties and sixties, people with multiple sclerosis and early seventies were treated the same way because, I mean, even the definition of multiple sclerosis is it changes in time and space, you know, but that was, you know, meaning, like, you can have, like, tingling and numbness in your right arm, and then, like, three months later, it's doing that in your left arm or down your leg, which a lot of people with Lyme have. And that's why they've often been told they have Ms for a while until it doesn't pan out, you know, because now we have fancier tests that can pretty much give a good diagnosis for multiple sclerosis. So if you don't have that, they go, oh, we don't know. You know, but so it's a tradition in medicine. Unfortunately, if we don't understand it, it doesn't exist. And it's mostly psychological.
And I apologize for that tradition because I think it is actually probably destroyed many lives. Because if you have a family situation, especially when you're the woman or an early 20 year old man, those are two groups that if they have debilitating symptoms that are not understood and diagnosed and have normal blood counts and normal chemistries, that's when friends and families are usually quick to throw you under the bus as a malinger or just lazy or just neurotic or depressed. Take your pick. No offense to depression, because it's pretty terrible. But people who aren't depressed get labeled all the time as depressed because we don't understand what's going on. So that is a huge shortcoming in medicine, I hope.
It is slowly shifting. And I think COVID is the unfortunate long COVID disaster.
[00:33:34] Speaker C: It's kind of helping us.
It's kind of helping us.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: No, I think so. I mean, in a way, that's one of those.
I don't say blessings, but one of those gifts of long COVID is that because it struck so many people at the same time, the government had to sit up and academics had to sit up and take notice and go, oh, you know, these people aren't just depressed. They tried that in the beginning, but they began the amount of data they collected when they looked harder at the people, they're getting it now. It's still going to take a long time because they're making the same mistake we made that most of the research in chronic fatigue has done, which is looking for the one cause, okay, and not seeing it is this is the body's end response to the illness, and it's a self. A self reinforcing system, because that's how the body is. You know, the beautiful thing about the body is we heal, okay? And the thing about chronic illness, it just. It's the healing pathways have just gotten stuck. They're not broken. I think that's the point of hope that. I want to put the point out there. This concept that your mitochondria are not sick in 99% of the people, okay, you don't have mitochondrial disease when you're fatigued all the time. There's a few hundred mitochondrial diseases, but they are extraordinarily rare. Okay. And a lot of people have spent a lot of time and money getting muscle biopsies and looking for these odd.
No, the mitochondria turn off when you're acutely infected or when your body thinks it's fighting an infection, okay? And that's the natural response. And as soon as you change that milieu, that chemical soup, that's telling your mitochondria there's danger, they turn back on again, and they work again, and your energy goes back to normal.
And the people who have some people with chronic fatigue, it's really easy to see, because there are some fortunate people with chronic fatigue that sometimes have, like, good weeks, you know, where they do, or even a good. Some of them have even good months, you know, where they, like, feel. They're back to normal, they can function, and then they get a cold again, and boom, they're back. Well, their mitochondria didn't go from ill to healthy. Their mitochondria just stopped responding to an environment that told it there it was a dangerous situation, and the best way to survive was to shut down energy production and put you into this state of, you know, semi hibernation in a way. You know, it's a survival technique. Unfortunately, it's a terrible way to live, but it's so it. That's the hope, is we just have to find what is what, what factors, and I, because I don't want to fall into that trap of saying, what thing? It's what group of factors. Now, every once in a while, you have a miracle. You find, oh, this person was deficient in x. You give it to them and they get better. But that's not 90%, 98% of the people. 98% of the people is you. You fix or you tweak 20 little things around. Diet, mood, gut hormone, you know, everything that everybody's doing, but you do it in small, little increments, and the system shifts and people get better, and then, and then you can kill the bugs if you have to.
[00:37:16] Speaker A: And I. And I think that is kind of a little bit of an education. I mean, in addition to the doctors being able to understand what Lyme is and what's going on. But I think also from a patient's point of view, there's a little bit of an education from them as well, to recognize, I'm going to the doctor, and it's going to be more than just, here's his pill, and everything is going to get better.
Understanding that the system in itself only has so many ways to communicate, and so it can communicate with pain. Can communicate with lack of energy, with mood. So those are kind of some of the basic ways that the body communicate. But there can be a multitude of different things that can then be the underlying factor that's causing the body to communicate in such way. So for the doctor, and I love how you're making the point that us doctors and here you an expert in this field, and you've seen many, many very severe complex Lyme patients, and you are still in that place where you need to step away and to research and learn more about this specific patient. Because the issues are always complex and the issues are always unique. And because you have just a variety of these three scenarios with pain, energy, mood, doesn't mean that we all of a sudden know exactly what it is.
[00:38:55] Speaker C: Us Lyme patients are really making you doctors do your homework. I can say that much.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Well, it's. I think I want to emphasize is that it's not just Lyme. Lyme is just one of the big noise makers, you know, I mean, the chronic viruses can create the same havoc.
Lyme just makes it a little worse. But I have to say, sometimes the nice part about Lyme is that when you get the body quieted down, the lime either gets quiet, or we can. Then I said, then, then knocking it out is not very hard because the immune system can do the rest when you get there.
One thing I just want to owe a shout out to what's happening in our practice is one of the as what you were saying is so much about this is just accumulated experience.
And actually, starting Monday, doctor Steve Harris of the Pacific Frontier Medical institute, he's joined. Steve is actually reached the same point that I have, but he's actually done something more radical about it, where at this point, he decided that he really just wants to be a consultant. You know, I mean, he has, you know, Jen Sugdin and Yvonne Sorensen, two great people who work with him, but he's joining us. And the amazing thing, just the other day, I gave Steve a call and said, hey, let's talk. Let's do a consult on this patient together. And, you know, he had ideas. He had things that, you know, I didn't know about. I mean, and that's. That's what's needed. And people have to understand, because I say there's thousands of ways to get better. And they all, and I keep saying they all work sometimes. I got that idea when I first moved to California, and I was in a group of, like, 40 practitioners up in, when I first moved to Santa Rosa. And I was amazed there were so many different healing modalities available in the middle of, in Santa Rosa, California. I was like, amazing. And people went around the room and they said what they did, and I realized each one of them, you know, I said they were from all different ways of healing.
Each one of them helped people, but I also knew that each one of them failed miserably sometimes because, you know, we see each other's failures. I mean, that's one of the why doctors egos sometimes grow is because we often don't recognize our own failures, because they just kind of like disappear.
And other people's failures come to see us and so we can go, oh, I fixed them, and he couldn't. But the reality is there's a lot of cross traffic. It goes both ways. Nobody helps everybody. I wish we did, but we try.
And so that's why I'm excited about having Doctor Harris joined, because he's been in, you know, I'm a dabbler. I've been in the chronic, just chronic, not feel well world for 30 something years. But I autoimmune, I love all kinds of weird diseases. And Steve does too. But his practice has been so much Lyme oriented, basically because he grew up with Lyme. His father was Nick Harris, who started Ignex labs. So the time he was twelve, he was hearing about Lyme disease. And so having that debt on our team is really exciting because it's that way of being able to get more eyes on the difficult patient.
Difficult to help patient, but sometimes difficult.
[00:42:45] Speaker C: Phrase that, not difficult patient.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: Always good to blame the patient.
[00:42:52] Speaker C: That's interesting you said that about igenics, because I did not know that that's, that that's who started that lab, because they too also have friends that Doctor Harris is their doctor, and they've been telling me for a couple of months that Doctor Harris is now switching over into your medical center. And so Monday's the day then, I guess.
[00:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of shocking. You know, when we first started talking about a year ago, I thought he was just talking about, okay, we're really here because it's just a dream, because, you know, building a team has always been, you know, we've done it several times, but people, you know, come and then they grow up and they want to do their own thing, and it's nice to, when somebody of Steve's experience is coming because they want to do a, they want to do a group thing and, you know, they've already built their own.
[00:43:48] Speaker A: They'Ve already grown up.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:43:52] Speaker C: I love that. I see that a lot more, too, now that whether it's doctor to doctor or doctor to therapist, seeing more of a mutual pulling together to help the same patient, you know, instead of being, well, I don't care what that doctor told you, you're going to do it this way. You know what I mean? Like, you guys are really starting to work together. And so I love seeing that he's going to be joining you. And just the more, like we say, when we're getting well from chronic illness, it's. It's the village. It takes the village. It takes the village of doctors, I think, too.
[00:44:27] Speaker B: Well, no, and I think that's, you know, when I first started doing the summits, I was, I was, like, not a big fan. Okay. Because, again, I grew up traditional world, where, you know, if you put a bold yellow page ad as a doctor, yellow. If people remember what the yellow pages were, you know, that was when we had telephone books.
[00:44:46] Speaker C: You're dating yourself.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: I know, I know. But anyways, that was considered almost inappropriate. Only the plastic surgeons had had big, thick ads, you know, and so to go out there in the world was, was a little uncomfortable to me. But the beauty of it has been, is the sharing of the information. And as more and more patients are discovering online the, you know, the multitude of ways and the multitude of doctors, and they can find the ones that resonate with them.
And that's the part of not giving up hope, because there's, there's people out there who will get you and help you. And it's not clear. In fact, our new symposium is called, I think it's cracking the chronic illness code. It's funny, it's what ticks toxins and mold, because that's the thing, because when mycotoxins are on top, they can really mimic a lot of these symptoms. And if you don't deal with that, you're not going to get anyplace else. It's. And, yeah, I kind of hate mycotoxins because they're like dental problems. You know, they're hidden and expensive.
And I used to tell patients, like, you know, I had, when I thought they had a dental issue, you know, and I didn't. I said, I don't want to send you to the dentist, because then you're going to spend all the money on the dentist, and there won't be anything left for me.
But, and it's the same way I feel about mold, is that by the time, if you have to renovate your house, I go, oh, my God. You know, but if you don't do that, you're wasting your money with me.
[00:46:22] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: You know, and that. That's just. And, yeah, I wish there was a way to.
It's another story. Yeah, I know.
[00:46:30] Speaker C: A whole nother episode, right?
[00:46:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that in itself. Yeah. And I still remember, you're talking about, like, ticks, toxins, and mold. I still remember, you know, like, you know, a couple of decades ago, probably, doctor Klinghardt, you know, saying, Andy, anything can cause anything, you know, and that. That's the thing. I've always gone, so it doesn't matter what kind of symptom picture you have, and you think that, well, that's mold or that's, you know, Bartonella or that's mercury.
Anything can cause anything. So you got to kind of step in knowing that instead of just locking in saying that this is all we're going to focus on.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
Amen. Hallelujah. Whatever. Whatever your thing is, that is the truth. And it's so hard because people come when, as a patient, when you're desperate and you've been sick for a long time, and you find the website or the friend whose uncle got treated, whatever, and you have, this is my diagnosis.
I just beg you, hold it lightly and gently, because one man's Bartonella list of symptoms is another man's babesia. Listen, it's. Yes, there's something wrong and there's something bothering you, and there's something causing it. And let's just explore that and take it as an exploration, because the desire to have a name and a diagnosis is so strong. When I first started practicing medicine, and my senior partner at the time, a very wise old doctor, he said to me, nominalism. And I go, what? No. He goes, people want a name.
They want a diagnosis. And I was kind of appalled by that. I thought, you know, you know, and he goes, yep, they have arthritis. Makes them happy, you know, and I just. But it doesn't really fit art, you know, it's arthritis, you know?
[00:48:29] Speaker C: Okay. And so, so along the lines of how you as doctors were trained, we, as chronically ill patients were trained, we go to the doctor as children and we say, we have this. They say, oh, you have this. You know, you have this ABC title, like, okay, thank you. You know, give us a pill and we'll go home. So we're kind of trained that way, too. But I love what you say, doctor Kay. Is that what you said Klinghardt said is because I think that that's some of the reasons why these people can't get well is because doctors are so hyper focused on, it's got to be this. If this is a symptom, it's got to be this. So I'm going to keep treating this even though you're not getting better, you know, and then eventually there's going to throw your hands up like it's you, you're doing something wrong. I don't know. So I like that.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And it makes, I always love to feel like we make people's lives easier after they listen to one of these talks, but really we don't. We just present that you, you know, reality is complex. If you like black and white answers, I don't know, go to american movies, you know, they have black and white characters, but that's not life, you know, I mean, like, most of the time there's lots of shades of gray and we have to work toward, through it together and find the answers.
You know, every once in a while, someone's got a really clear cut x, and I know a doctor who really does a great job at that, that could be the right person for them because I might, you know, not do it strong enough because you'll find, I'm sure Doctor, Doctor Carfeld has seen there are people who like, you know, they have an incredible program for treating, you know, Bartonella or, or, you know, or mold or, you know, if it's just mold, if it's just mold, and which I don't really ever really believe is because I really don't think that that mold causes problems unless you already have a disordered immune system. But, you know, everything. Sometimes, um, you know, those people do great jobs. The trick is all of us remembering when we're hammering and it's not working, stop.
Like when you're on, when you're on the iv antibiotics for a year and you're like, you know, 20% better. Yeah, I mean, my vision is stopped much earlier than that, but, you know, it's, don't put all your eggs in one basket because, I mean, that's it. We kind of feel that I've been sick so long, it has to be this because this is going to get me better. And I just beg you, believe that. Try that, but understand, keep your eyes open. And if you're not getting, if you're getting 20%, it's good. But make sure you look at other possibilities. And that's the beauty of these summits and these on air programs. There are so many of them, is that so many doctors are talking that people can get ideas because I always said I learned the most from my patients when I was really working. Crazy, I didn't have time to go to meetings. My patients would come back with all this stuff because they were sick. They were on the Internet all day, and they would come, hey, did you look at this? Did you look at that?
And we have to encourage that level in everybody. But we also, one last thing about patients looking things up. Don't spend too much time on the specific, either Facebook pages or groups because you can make yourself crazy because you'll find some of the smartest people on them. I have to admit, I have been overwhelmed by some of the depth of knowledge of some of the people who are writing on those things. But on the other hand, it's filled with people who haven't gotten better because when you recover, you usually leave the group.
[00:52:38] Speaker C: You nailed it. You nailed it right there. Yes. And there's a lot of, you know, just negative. It will. Those groups can draw you down even further than you are down because like you said, most people, unless you're crazy like me, and you just stay to help people, right.
Most people leave. And so the people that are sick, to bet on the flip side of that, how you say that, they're very knowledgeable. It's because we had to be, like, we had to be our own advocate and learn. You know, I joke and I'm like, I swear, I could be like a doctor, a pharmacist, a therapist, and, you know, I just didn't go to school for it. But, like, we have to learn so much on our own. But, yes, you're right. They are great for support. Pick and choose which ones you want to stay in and which ones you want to participate in. And of course, I'm going to give a shout out to mine. Lyme conquerors mentoring Lyme warriors. Like, we don't, we don't take that negative Nancy on our page. It's okay to have a bad day and to voice your opinion, but the next day, come back and be positive and share something good with the group. And. And that's what it's about. And so pick and choose where you want to spend your energy because we have little of it, and so you need to make it count, for sure.
[00:53:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And focusing on that place of. Because I can't get back to it enough. Hope.
It could be oversold. I mean, there's like, you know what I call kind of air sats, that kind of, like, airy fairy. Oh, it's going to be wonderful. I'm prayed today and it's all going to be good. But there's that hope that you feel in your bones that you just know that you're going to find it eventually and that's a hard one when you failed 50 times and you've spent a lot of your savings. So I don't say that lightly, but still in there, if you're breathing and you haven't your illness, there's hope because I can't tell you how many people have gotten better that I haven't expected to. You know, I tell people, I never promise, you know, people, if you come in and you're fairly healthy, I can feel pretty comfortable. Yeah, we'll get you over it. But if you've been, you know, sick for 1020 years, you know, I don't know what I can promise you, but I know we can help a bit.
But if I help a bit and then somebody else helps a bit, that grows, you know, and that's where the hope lies. And yeah, I encourage hope, but I don't want to sound cheesy about it because, you know, I don't know how much hope I could have after, you know, 1020 years of failure. You know, it's not easy. It just requires. It requires a lot, you know, but I can keep saying is that if you can find that, it will, it will help. And that's where, you know, all those other programs out there, all those chances of having a little bit of love and light, you know, come back, you know, the sun and the trees, they help.
[00:55:39] Speaker C: Yeah. And I said all the time, it's mindset is so important. It just, it's hard to get there and stay there, but it's huge when we want to get better.
[00:55:48] Speaker A: And I think also with, I mean, I mean, you say you have these patients come in, you know, 1020, you can't promise.
You can't promise anything. But still, you know, some of these get better. So like you're saying that, yes, you come with all this history, all these failures, all spend money and you're still sick. But people that have come to you, a certain percentage of them get better.
[00:56:18] Speaker B: So it gets better because it's what they did wasn't necessarily wrong.
It's all about, you know, like if you have to do it in the. In more or less the right order, I don't want to say the right order because, yeah, I don't think the system is quite that demanding. You know, I said, that's why I like fixing bodies, not cars. You know, if you fix a car, you do it. If you don't tighten it, people, you got to get close, okay? Because we're healing. Our bodies heal. We don't understand what healing is, how to do it. We just, we set the stage so many times. I'll see people who've been sick for ten or 20 years, and it was just that they, they started off in the. At the end of the game, you know, where, and so we can get a lot of mileage out of them and get them significantly better because we just went back and did things in a different order plus something new. Because the thing I just. What I'm so amazed about is in the last.
I don't know. I don't know if it's five years or ten years, I lose track of time. But the amount of tools that are out there now, they're just mushroomed, okay? Because 20 years ago we were working with antibiotics and a few herbs and a little bit of detox.
And we have so many ways in now and so many different ways to detox people with different things, to find the one that doesn't set your body off, you know, and so many ways to treat. And we now have the peptides we had. You know, we used to play with a lot of rna things. I mean, to be. The chiropractors in America have been using rna derived growth factors, you know, standard process for like, you know, ever, you know, but doctors were sure that none of that could work because it was all going to be destroyed in the GI tract. That was the teaching, you know, and we knew everything, so that, you know, all that stuff didn't do anything. And, well, lo and behold, this stuff is amazing. I mean, and it's one of those levels of tools, you know, that opens up a new. A new doorway for a lot of people to lower their inflammation, to modulate their immune response a little bit, to lower the inflammation in their blood vessels, you know, just lots. And so that's what keeps happening. That's what I'm saying. Not giving up hope is because we keep learning. And the whole genetics revolution, we are able, and I use consults for a lot of this because I can do, again, it's time. You can't learn everything. But with genetics now, we're way past the genetic genie.
We can really do deep dives.
There's enough literature now so we can really weigh what gene combinations may be affecting you because we all have a ton of SNP's. You don't want to go chasing every snip in the book, but. And sometimes we can find that we can boost a system or suppress a system indirectly by helping just feed the body differently and turn, you know, turning on the right gene or help turn it off because it's the small molecules that turn on your genes and turn them off. That's in a whole other story. I'm sorry, I shouldn't get into. But the body's a pretty magical place. You don't always have to use heavy duty drugs to change your genetic expression, and that can make a big difference. That then allows your immune system to make a different choice.
And so healing stays possible. Um, and one last. One last plug for the people who feel that nothing is helping them is to think and think about your structure.
That's the other thing that I think medical doctors have just managed to ignore. Unless it's broken, they don't care. But if your head's always full, if you always have pressure in your head, well, think about your neck, think about the drainage. Everybody's talking about their glymphatics. Well, if you've got your scalenes, these little small muscles here and the big muscle in the front and the belly, if your neck is tight and all the time you're not draining, even if you're getting supposedly decent sleep, you're not going to drain because it's a low pressure system, and that muscle tightness is enough to lower it and keep the gunk in your head, and you're going to have pressure all day. So, um, it's just structure. So pay attention. You know, good chiropractors, good osteopaths, you know, people, you know, who've studied cranial sacral, you know, you got to. It's all in the person. It's like, you know, it's the singer, not the song. I don't care what their degree is, okay, it's how good their hands and their sensitivity is and how well they can listen to your body and not think that they. Oh, this is the other thing. And not think that they know what's going to work.
Listen to your body, because that's where I think a lot of sensitive people get into trouble. They'll go to one body worker or one acupuncturist and they'll blow them up, and they won't want to ever touch it again. Not understanding if it really made you sick. If you do it right, it might really help you get better. Okay? Because it didn't make you sick. Because they, like, you know, they put a poison in you. They just released a poison that's in you too quickly.
[01:01:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's such a balance, such a delicate, delicate journey. And that's the thing also, yes, as providers, practitioners, you can't project your treatment onto the patient.
It's a symbiotic relationship. Instead of, here's my treatment and I'm putting it onto you, and this is what we're going to do. So it is that dance that you always want to do. Well, Doctor Gordon, you can.
[01:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:26] Speaker A: You're amazing with everything you do, with the knowledge you have, with what you're doing and how you're helping people. And I so appreciate that you're coming, you know that. Coming onto our podcast, talking about this.
When is your summit? When is that launching?
[01:02:42] Speaker B: Oh, I believe it's May 6. I hope I have the date right. I said I'm terrible at these things, but I believe it's early May and you'll hear all about it. And I'm excited people to listen because we have a wide array of treaters, supportive therapies, some interesting devices, because you just can go between them and kind of smell and sniff it out and see what might resonate with you, because that is a big part of this is following that intuition, because our head makes lots of noise. The intuition is really your best guide. You know, you got to combine the two.
And. And what I look forward to is I have to come visit your clinic one day, because I've always been so impressed by all the work that you do. And, um, I. I call them toys, but I don't mean that to slight them. I love them.
[01:03:35] Speaker C: He's got a lot of toys, Jeff. Since I've known him, he has expanded into, like, another world. Like, seriously, we're having another re re grand opening. Like, is that, you know, coming up here soon? Um, it's. It's crazy, but it's amazing, for sure.
[01:03:51] Speaker B: And that's the point that I want to make to people is that there are so. And they all work in the right patient, and that's the beauty. And, you know, and especially with a practitioner who. It's nice when you have different ones, because then you don't fall prey to the, you know, every. Every nail, everything is a hammer. You know, um, you. You can actually discern, oh, this is right for you. And I think that's critical.
[01:04:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I love. I mean, that's what I love. Instead of just. I have just this one toy and this is what everybody needs to do.
[01:04:27] Speaker C: And it's gonna work for you and.
[01:04:29] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we've all seen that show. Yes, this is it. Do this. You will be better. Yeah. And I go and again, that works for a hint for people who aren't too ill.
But anyway, so thank you again. I really appreciate the chance to be on your podcast. And just to I said, when we do webinars I get to learn a lot more from you. So thank you for letting me just talk today, but we'll be back to share again.
[01:04:57] Speaker C: We love it. I so appreciate you coming on. It was a pleasure meeting you and just lots of really good information, both sides of everything going on today. So great, great, great conversation. We appreciate you.
[01:05:09] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:05:10] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Thank you.
[01:05:19] Speaker E: The information this podcast is for educational purposes only and it's not designed to diagnose or treat any disease. I hope this podcast impacted you as it did me. Please subscribe so that you can be notified when new episodes are released. There are some episodes excellent shows coming up that you do not want to miss. If you're enjoying these podcasts, please take a moment to write a review. And please don't keep this information to yourself. Share them with your family and friends. You never know what piece of information that will transform their lives. For past episodes and powerful information on how to conquer Lyme, go to integrativelimesolutions.com and an additional powerful resource for Lyme support and group discussions, join Tanya on Facebook at Lyme Conquerors mentoring Lyme warriors if you'd like to know more about the cutting edge integrative of Lyme Therapies MyCenter offers, please visit thecarlfeldcenter.com. Thank you for spending this time with us and I hope to see you at our next episode of Integrative Lyme Solutions with Doctor Carl Falls.
