Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome back to Integrative lyme Solutions with Dr. Karl Feldt.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: I am so excited about the show.
[00:00:07] Speaker A: That we have ahead of us.
[00:00:08] Speaker C: We have some phenomenal information that could save lives.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: You're gonna need to tune in to what's going on today. The information is jam packed, so don't step away.
[00:00:24] Speaker D: Hello.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining Integrative lyme Solutions with Dr. Karlfeld. I am your host, Dr. Michael Karl Fe Belt. I've been in clinical practice since 1987. I've seen pretty much everything under the sun, worked with so many different Lyme patients, and I know what a devastating disease this is. That's why I'm doing this podcast to make sure that you are armed with the information that you need in order to be able to be successful in your struggle with Lyme. We'll be featuring authors, doctors, professors, and also people like yourself that have gone through the journey that you're going through, that have been where you've been and is now on the other side. And they get to tell their victorious story as to how they battle Lyme so that you can implement that in your life as well.
Be sure to like us and write a review on whichever platform that you're listening on. What that does is it enables other people to see us more so that they have access to this information as well. So I'm so excited that you're tuning in and get ready for this upcoming show. It is going to be amazing.
Well, Dr. Daniel Kinderler, it's such an honor and pleasure to have you on Integrative lyme solution with Dr. Karl Feld. Thank you so much for taking some time and, and I know you're very busy schedule.
[00:01:54] Speaker D: You're welcome. I'm really glad to be here.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: So you started as a traditional medical doctor and you. I think you're almost one of the kind of back in the 70s, almost where you became a holistic or integrative type of doctor. Tell me a little bit about why.
[00:02:16] Speaker C: You moved in that direction.
[00:02:19] Speaker D: Okay.
We could, we could spend an hour just talking about that, but I'll do my best to make it concise.
So I'll start off. You know, growing up, my mother was food editor of prevention magazine for 25 years. She wrote healthy cookbooks. I was raised on whole wheat bread and dark greens and no iceberg lettuce, no soda pop.
This was in the 50s, right. And she was considered a health nut. That and friends with Adele Davis and beeches Trump Hunter, etc.
Amazing woman. I really, I really Think my mom was quite amazing. And, and because of it, I was oriented towards nutrition and preventive medicine.
Now, of course, she's mainstream, right? And she's no longer with us, but, but everything she espoused is, is considered mainstream. At least you know, where I live, which is Denver, Boulder, Colorado, which, you know, tends to be a little more liberty, you know, oriented in that direction.
So when I went to medical school, I trained in internal medicine.
That's, I was, it's interesting, I even did a chief residency in internal medicine where, you know, in a way I was the smartest person in the hospital because I had gleaned the best of all the subspecialists.
But I was treating, I was consulted on the sickest people in the hospital and I had this amazing fund of knowledge in my head and all the, the most recent literature that I could espouse. Well, it also became apparent to me that, that most of the patients that I was treating were going to either die in the hospital or be dead within a year. They had end stage illness and it was just beyond our capacity to reverse. It didn't make sense. I thought, wow, if I could stop 10 people from smoking in their 30s, I'll have done more than the next two years in the ICU.
When I left, when I finished my residency, I worked emergency room to, to make money. And I actually really enjoyed emergency medicine. But I started a practice called Nutrition and Preventive Medicine.
So that was in 1980, and there weren't very many holistic docs back then. That's what we were called, holistic docs. And we were considered quacks, but actually we were much smarter than other people because we knew nutritional biochemistry, right?
And, and, and we knew each other. You know, Jonathan Wright, Leo Gallon, Sid Baker. You know, we're the old, the old guys, right? There weren't that many of us and we would get together and we would share stories, we would learn from each other, and they're just, there just wasn't much out there at that point.
But, but what I found was I wasn't just treating people who were interested in nutrition and preventive medicine. I was treating people who had fallen through the cracks, who had seen many, many doctors and they were still sick and they had problems with inflammatory bowel disease, chronic migraines, chronic fatigue, et cetera.
And that's when I was introduced by Jonathan Wright. Actually I was introduced to environmental medicine. He said if there are three or more complaints that defy explanation, think food allergies. So I was putting people on elimination Challenge diets. And I was curing people. I was curing people of their chronic migraines, of their inflammatory bowel disease and so on. It was really quite amazing.
Ended up, you know, having a big practice centered on nutrition and environmental medicine. So now that would be called integrative or functional medicine. Right. You know, then in 1996, I became very ill and it was an acute illness. I had a fever of 104 degrees, shaking, chills, etc.
Short story is that kept recurring these high fevers. I saw a buddy of mine, a doctor, he said, whoa, you have an enlarged spleen, let's run some tests. He came out positive for Lyme.
I thought, wow, great. I take an antibiotic for a few weeks. I'm good.
Not so good.
I was on the antibiotics. I was on full doses of antibiotics for a month and I was still sick. It had more from the high fever to severe insomnia and huge anxiety and fatigue. Those were my main symptoms.
I called up Alan Steer. He was considered probably the world expert in Lyme disease at that point. He was the one who published in the late 70s about the kids in Lyme, Connecticut and so on.
He's a rheumatologist. He's not infectious disease and specifically he's not a neurologist. He was mainly interested in joint pains.
Well, I, back then, as a doctor, you could call up other doctors and they could be, who knows, you know, chief of staff at Stanford and they call you back.
Doesn't happen so much now.
At any rate, you know, we had a nice discussion. He was very polite, courteous. I presented my case and I explained that I had been on antibiotics for a month. I told him about my tests, which were slam dunk for Lyme disease.
And his response was, you don't have Lyme disease.
And I said, and why not? And he said, because if you did, you would be better by now.
And I said, well, what do I have? He said something else.
Well, that was my introduction to the Lyme wars.
He was categorically wrong. I clearly had Lyme disease. But he was correct. I also had something else at that point. It was Babesia, a well known prominent co infection. But back then it was under the radar. But the presentation of very high fevers and drenching sweats and so on. That's not Lyme, that's Babesia, as you know. Right.
So that began my journey. And eventually I didn't have Bartonella right away, but I did get it. I was living in Massachusetts after all, and.
And I I got very, very sick. I. There was, at some point I was totally disabled.
But once I got better, once I recovered enough to be functional, I said, what I want to do is just treat people with Lyme and tick borne infections because it's very clear that, that mainstream docs are not only clueless, they're in denial.
It's a travesty. And I still see patients day in, day out who tell me horror stories after they've seen doctors. It's particularly bad here in Colorado.
And so that's how I ended up specializing in Lyme disease. But the good news is I have a very strong background in internal medicine, I have a very strong background in environmental medicine, I have a strong background in nutritional biochemistry, and I actually have a strong background in energetic and spiritual healing as well. And, and it's because of that I've been able to bring all that experience that I said, I, I really need to write a book because so many other doctors wanted to learn from me.
And so, okay, I said I need to put this down in writing and hence my book.
[00:10:23] Speaker C: Hello, dear listeners, this is Dr. Michael Karlfeld, your host of integrative Lyme solutions. Today I'm excited to share an exclusive opportunity from the Karlfeld center where we blend healing power of nature with groundbreaking therapies to combat Lyme disease and its associated challenges. At the Karlfeld center, we're not just fighting Lyme, we're revolutionizing the way it's treated with cutting edge therapies like photodynamic therapy, full body ozone IV therapy, silver IVs, brain rebalancing, autonomic response testing, laser energetic detoxification, and more. We aim to eradicate Lyme. Our approach is comprehensive, supporting your body's immune system, detoxification processes, hormonal balance and mitochondrial health. Ensuring extra a holistic path to recovery. Understanding Lyme disease and its impact is complex, which is why we're offering a free 15 minute discovery call with one of our Lyme literate naturopathic doctors. This call is your first step towards understanding how we can personalize your healing journey, focusing on you as a whole person, not just your symptoms. Our team, led by myself, Dr. Michael Karlfields, is here to guide you through your recovery with the most advanced diagnostic tools and individualized treatment plans and supportive therapies designed to restore your health and vitality. Whether you're facing Lyme disease head on or seeking preventative strategies, we're committed to your wellness. Take the first step towards reclaiming your health. Visit us at thecarlfulthcenter.com or call us at 208-338-8902 to schedule your free discovery call at. At the Karlfield center, we believe in healing naturally, effectively and holistically. Thank you for tuning in into integrative lyme solution with Dr. Karlfield. Remember, true health is not just the absence of disease. It's achieving the abundance of vitality. Let's discover yours together.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: I'm curious. So back then, I mean, obviously we've learned so much since that time, and I know you've been a driving force and, and kind of enhancing our ability to address these chronic illnesses. But back then, when you were struggling yourself, I mean, obviously two weeks of antibiotics didn't do it.
What enabled you to turn things around in your mind?
[00:12:52] Speaker D: You know, lots of people have said, well, how did you get better?
You know, there were certain times when antibiotics helped and certain times when they didn't.
And I have to attribute grace to a lot of my recovery.
I was, I can tell you that I wanted to give up. I, I just said, I, I can't do this anymore.
And particularly the, the neuropsych issues were so, so severe and, and just everything seemed black.
And so I said, well, I need to change one thing and see what happens. And it's interesting.
The one thing I decided to change at one point was getting off Klonopin for sleep. Had been on it for maybe 10 years.
Not a good idea. I won't prescribe it anymore. Right.
So it took me six months to get off it. But I hope people are listening to this because the first 24 hours, I was totally clear of it. My depression lifted 50%.
Yeah.
But you know, I really do attribute grace. You know, the wisdom of the universe had something else in store for me.
And I keep practicing despite my age, because I make a difference in people's lives. So I have an awful lot of gratitude to be doing what I'm doing.
I don't feel it's a service. I feel like I'm, I'm benefiting by my practice, not just my patients.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, God, God knew what was in store for you and the amount of people that you, that you were touching and that needed to be touched. You know, especially with, with a disease like Lyme disease that is so underestimated and under treated and under cared for and. Yeah. So to have trailblazers like yourself, to be able to drive this field forward is, I mean, what a blessing to the world.
[00:15:09] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: So tell me.
[00:15:12] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Cause you teach courses at ilads and also Then your book give me a little bit of a picture of your view of how Lyme should be viewed and how it should be addressed.
[00:15:31] Speaker D: Wow, what a huge question.
It would be nice if there was a lot more education on the part of the doctors.
I get. Most of my referrals are from psychiatrists who have come across this themselves. You know, back about 25 years ago, the ILADS conferences were maybe 100 people maybe. And each of us were there either because we ourselves had experienced it or a close family member. So we had this very personal experience with it.
Now, thankfully, there's a whole lot of other practitioners and including not just MDs, but nature paths like yourself, which I think is great.
First and foremost, we just need to educate doctors. And it's, and what I do in, in that regard is, you know, I write. Most of the writing I do now is in medical journals. I used to write mainly for lay people. I used to write postal, used to post articles a lot on Lyme disease.org and other journals. But now I mostly write articles in medical journals hoping to spread the word.
And, and for some reason I really enjoy that.
The. What happened, what happened somewhere around 2012 or 2013 was I went to an ILADS conference and I thought, this isn't very good. I just don't think these lectures that they're giving are, are very helpful.
So I contacted, I contacted the ILADS people and I said, hey, I'd like to be on the programming committee. They said, fine.
And I said, let me see the feedback questionnaires.
And they routinely were saying things like, well, I came to the conference, I thought I'd be able to learn how to treat Lyme, but that's not what happened. And that isn't what happens at the conferences. Right? They're talking about research that doesn't apply to mundane what comes into your office day in, day out.
So I proposed a course. I said, let's do a long fundamentals course that's been a huge success. I mean, I'm not, I'm not doing it anymore. I started it, I organized it and I ended up getting into trouble because I, I rejected some of the PowerPoints that, that these high minded doctors were, were submitting. And I said, you know, this, this just isn't very good. And, and it needs to include X, Y and Z. And then there are other doctors who said, you know, thank you so much for this feedback. This is great.
But I antagonized a lot of people and, and then, you know, so I haven't been active in eyelids anymore. They. They really went after me.
That was political.
But I'm really glad eyelids is continuing to do its work, and I still often lecture there.
I'm particularly interested, though, and probably because of my own experience in the psychiatric aspects of Lyme neuropsychiatric. Lyme, as you know.
And I'll just tell you one quick story.
One of the things we see is a lot of kids with pans, right?
So for the audience, that's pediatric acute onset neuropsychiatric syndrome, which is patterned after pandas, which has to do with a strep infection that then triggers serious psychiatric problems, starting with OCD and, or food restriction, anorexia nervosa and severe depression, severe anxiety, cognitive problems, irritability, rage, and it goes on and on, often tics, urinary problems, sleep problems, et cetera. Okay, These kids were normative, they were neuronormative, and then they get something like a strep throat and fall off a cliff with these symptoms initially described at the NIH in the 1990s. And, and then that was with strep. And then it was expanded because it turns out it's not just strep. There's, you know, maybe 20, including Covid, by the way, 20 microbes that so far have been identified.
And we see patients, kids up to 18 years old. This case definition is up to 18 years old with these syndromes. Oh, my God. Sometimes they're, they're psychotic.
It's. It's heartbreaking. And the whole family is. Is terribly disrupted. Sometimes they're violent, they're beating up. They're beating up their, their sib. The. The fathers are having to restrain them. They're destroying the house.
These poor kids. And so the story, this story leads to a patient of mine who's a psychiatrist, inpatient psychiatry.
And he calls me up, he says, hey, Dan, I have this patient, she's, I don't know, 18 or 20.
And I really think she's got pans, and she's been in out of sight institutions, you know, terrible psych history, and just on a whole lot of psych meds, not getting better. And, and he said, how, you know, what do I do? And I said, well, here's the test. I would order. Test came back positive for Lyme, Bartonella. No surprise for the audience. I just want to tell them Bartonella is always highly suspect in these kids with pans.
Bartonella is the worst.
So he comes back, he says, okay, here's how she tested. I said, okay, here's what I would start her on. Here's who I'd refer to because I did just didn't have a slot to take her at that point.
Okay, what I'm leading to is that something like close to a year later I said, hey, how's that girl doing?
And he said, oh my God, it's like a miracle. She's at least 80% better. They are so grateful.
And I said, so tell me, how many of these kids do you think get properly diagnosed and treated? Do you think it's 1%?
He said it's much less. It's much less than 1%.
And it's, I could tell stories on it on and on. It's crazy because first of all, as you well know, the diagnosis of Lyme disease is totally denied by the medical profession. So they're not getting diagnosed with Lyme and other tick borne infections and the diagnosis of pans is denied. This came out of the, the nih, Susan Sweeto, and there's laboratory, as you know, the Cunningham panel that demonstrates anti neuronal antibodies, etc.
Excuse me, this is mainstream. Stanford publishes about this and I can tell you that there are very few academic hospitals that will make this diagnosis. And right here I have patients coming to me. Well, I see patients from all over, right. But, but locally at the cu, the university hospital, they, they won't make the diagnosis. And I'm talking about kids who are poster children for this diagnosis. I mean they fit the case definition perfectly.
They won't make the diagnosis. It's still a psych problem.
So you know, it's, it's really interesting, Mike Michael, because it took a long time for western medicine to grasp the concept that, that mental and emotional stress can cause physical problems. Right. That's relatively new in Western medicine.
But western medicine still hasn't grasped that organic problems can generate mental and emotional problems.
So we have an organic problem here that results in a psychiatric diagnosis, but it's, it's primarily an organic problem. These kids have brain on fire. But, but you know, adults have the same thing. It doesn't necessarily manifest as the same case definition.
I had a patient who at the time was 15 or 16 years old. She was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa. She was in and out, inpatient, outpatient, inpatient, outpatient, trying to treat her, her eating disorder not getting any benefit at all.
She had to have an NG tube to sustain nutrition and weight.
And, and the doctors at the eating disorder unit said, you know, we don't know what else to do. They actually said to the mother, maybe she has to almost die, have a near death experience and she'll decide she wants to live and eat. That was their recommendation. Yeah. Really.
At which point the mother freaks. But mother was savvy. They were from upstate New York. She said, well, maybe she's got Lyme disease and gets her tested. She's got Lyme. She comes to me.
It's interesting. She had bartonella striat. Right.
She thought they were stretch marks.
Another indication of why she had to lose weight.
Okay. Anyway, I published that.
That's, that's out there. And, and so there are cases like that. While I was seeing her, I said to a woman, to a doctor who was sitting in with me, wouldn't it be good if we could test everyone in, in an eating disorder clinic? And she said, well, I, I'm actually the medical consultant at a residential treatment center for adolescents not with eating disorders, but all of whom were diagnosed with major depressive disorder, most of whom diagnosed with anxiety disorders. Only one had an organic disorder which was celiac.
Otherwise they were diagnosed as having psychiatric illnesses and they couldn't code, they couldn't cope at home, they couldn't cope going to public school.
And so they were at this, at this residential treatment center. And we got permission, we did all the paperwork, et cetera. And we tested 10 at random.
Something like 3 out of 10 tested positive for Lyme and around 3 out of 10 for Bartonella and some for tick borne relapsing fever. We did not test for Babesia because we couldn't get the lab to test to do that for free, but we did. Molecular lab agreed to test all of them for the Cunningham panel for the anti neuronal antibodies and 9 out of 10. And this is in Colorado, mind you, where the public health clinic says, no, there's no Lyme here. The ticks stop at the border, right?
Maybe they stay in Idaho, I don't know. But, but at any rate, 9 out of 10, and I'm not talking about borderline, I'm talking about slam dunk.
And I just think this is a big, big problem. The point being that this brain on fire business, causing depression and anxiety disorders, and sometimes much worse, including psychosis, I think is much, much more common than is recognized.
And now there's a huge amount of literature describing brain inflammation in, in kids and adults with psychiatric disorders, depression, anxiety, sometimes bipolar and psychosis, and interventions where they give a cox2 inhibitor like celecoxib and they get better. It's, this is, there's I, there's so much literature like this going on, but it hasn't filtered into the medical profession, hasn't filtered into some pragmatic benefit for patients. Whereas, excuse me, you're going to put, you're putting these people on major psychiatric meds, would you, would you put them on Motrin? Motrin or Celebrex at the same time?
You know, the literature is there. And so, and then the, you know, and the other piece of this is, is that is ptsd.
You know, I think that just getting Lyme can cause. I think I have ptsd. I think just getting Lyme could cause ttsd. I think the experience with doctors who are denying their experience can cause ptsd.
You know, it's, you know, but we know that from the ACE studies, adverse childhood experience studies, that kids who experience significant adverse childhood experiences, they have inflammation and they are more prone to a host of organic illnesses, heart disease, lung disease, cancer, immune disorders. But they can, they'll just test them, they'll test these kids for inflammatory cytokine, CRP, etc. And they're elevated, just the stress. So there's all this literature now on stress resulting not just in the neurological effects that, that we all agree on and recognize. Oh yeah. You know, they're, they can't sleep and they're nervous and their heart's racing. Yes.
But their immune system is also racing.
And so they have tons of inflammation, including in their brain. So maybe it started with stress and then they have these neuroendocrine immune activations and dysregulation and then all of this brain inflammation and then that leads to anxiety and depressive disorders and ptsd.
So it turns out that Lyme and CO infections, bartonell in particular, which causes so much inflammation in the brain, follows same pathways as ptsd. And the patients I see that are most challenging and most difficult to treat are patients who had core traumas in childhood. PTSD from those adverse childhood experiences and then get Lyme on top of it.
Boom. Oh my God. They're so disregulated and they don't tolerate hardly anything that you give them.
Their, their systems are, are so hypervigilant. Their, their nervous system is hyper vigilant because of their trauma. You know what's safe? I don't know what's safe. They, but their immune system is saying the same thing. I don't know if this food is safe. I don't know if this environment is safe or these chemicals are safe and maybe even the electromagnetic fields, they're really environmentally ill. So what we see, as I'm sure you recognize, Michael, is this vast array of environmental sensitivities and all the dysregulation, a lot of endocrine dysregulation on top of it. And I think, I think the most important thing we can do for these people is first create an environment of safety.
Safety on all levels.
Let them know that, let them know that we, we get it. You know, just compassionate presence and understanding like oh my God, oh my God, what you did. And then thank God you survived. And you know, I really, I believe that.
Well, you know, the next generation, I really think that. And as you know, there are programs that work on this is helping to develop safety for our patients.
So you know, there are patients walking around with Lyme, Babisia, Bartonella, who are just fine.
And then there are people who, like my experience, you know, are like, you know, want to die because we're, it's, it's so uncomfortable.
[00:32:25] Speaker B: And, and you think that kind of the, like you're talking about kind of prior experiences like the PTSD or, or something that put them in that state. I mean, obviously we have genetics and epigenetics and all of that, but do you feel that that puts them more at that state where their immune system is going to be hyper vigilant against these different infections and co. Infections than triggering that inflammatory response that causes their whole nervous system just to be on fire on, on top of, of the trauma?
[00:33:04] Speaker D: Yes, I don't think that's all of it, but I think it's a significant aspect of it. And I, and what you said, Michael, is very true. Genetics, epigenetics, ancestral trauma, I mean all of this plays a role on top of nutrition, on top of exposures, etc, and it adds up. You know, it's a. Environmental medicine talks about the beaker metaphor, you know, where things pile up and, and then eventually they spill over and we blame that last thing that makes us spill over. But really it's everything that's, that's been contributing to that fill that beaker.
It's all of the above. And, and that's, you know, what we used to call holistic approach, but now I guess integrative functional medicine. But the point is we need to see the patient in all those different aspects and that's our job. That's our job. And, and there's, and everybody's different. We gotta, you know, honor their individuality and, and you know, I'm, my, I don't, I think that we as physicians tend to attract different types of Patients. Right.
And I tend to attract sensitive patients. This is just.
For whatever reason, this is who I am and what I've been guided to do. And, And.
And I work with these people very gently.
You know, there are doctors who put people on multiple antibiotics, full doses at once, and I'm like, ah, you know, it's not going to work with my patient population.
We start one thing at a time, slowly.
But even before we do antibiotics, we said, well, you know, we got to work on your gut, we got to work on your food sensitivities, we got to get your adrenals and your thyroid and your pituitary, and it working normally here.
And, you know, that's what I call foundational work before we start any antibiotics, whether they be botanical or pharmaceutical.
So, yeah, you know, it's.
And it's still a learning curve. We still have so much to learn. But.
But being a compassionate presence is. Is really important in the healing process.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and. And like, you're saying is that, you know, because the. The pathogens that are inside of you, they are, you know, they have consciousness in themselves, and they are responding to the environment. They're responding to your emotions, they're responding to your traumas. You know, so they.
With their defense mechanism, you know, if they feel unsafe. And obviously we live now in an environment with so much electro smog, which, you know, these pathogens were not used to exist, you know, in that type of environment.
So they become very defensive. And so if we just start attacking them even more, then, from my understanding, they would then react even more and we would create more of a, you know, dysregulation within that system.
[00:36:38] Speaker D: You know, it's a good way of putting it, Michael. I tell my patients we don't want to piss them off.
You know, we want to live in peace with these dudes.
And so we have, you know, that may mean we want to knock them down somewhat, but carefully, gently, and.
And get to a place where they're not triggering inflammation anymore. In patients with chronic Lyme, I don't. I.
I think it's really rare that I.
That these people eradicate the infections.
We do not have a test that demonstrates that they're gone. And we. That test does not exist.
We do get people into total remission, and that's what I call it. I don't call it a cure.
And often that means they can even stop antimicrobials and just stay in balance with a healthy lifestyle.
But they get stressed out, then that inflammation comes back, and then they become More reactive.
So, yeah, it's an all of the above kind of attitude, like anything goes here in terms of our relationship with these bugs.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: And you mentioned the pituitary. I mean, obviously adrenals play a huge role because that's our stress response. But you also brought in pituitary. Tell me a little bit about that, because I assume that there's a lot of dysregulation that's taking place there when the brain is on fire.
[00:38:23] Speaker D: Yeah, it's really interesting.
The pituitary is like the size of a pea that sits on the base, at the base of the brain, directly behind the eyes.
And it puts out, I think, nine different hormones, each of which is under its own feedback control.
And it's very common for one or more of those hormones to be dysregulated.
It's rare that I see them all dysregulated.
The most common one I see is a lack of antidiuretic hormone, AKA vasopressin, AKA arginine, Vasopressin.
I'll always ask patients, do you pee a lot?
Often? They'll say, yeah, I pee a lot, but I drink a lot.
It's actually the other way around. They drink a lot because they pee a lot. And they're always, you know, they're getting the message. I'm dehydrated, so they drink a lot.
But the point is they lack vasopressin, they lack antidiuretic hormone. And what that hormone does is signals the kidney to concentrate the urine, but they can't concentrate the urine because they don't have that hormone to tell them.
So they're always dehydrated, and that contributes to their lack of well being. It certainly makes the dysautonomia worse.
And more than half the time, I can treat that with a pituitary glandular, which is really nice.
If not, we try giving.
You can actually give, either nasally or orally, a drug called desmopressin. Unfortunately, at least half my patients don't tolerate it. They get bad headaches and they know one dose, they know.
So that's the most common example I have of pituitary dysregulation.
But I see an awful lot of people with low TSH values. Despite the fact that their Euthyroid, their T4, and their T3 are normal, their TSH is low.
Their doctors, almost invariably and even including endocrinologists, will look that and say, oh, you're taking too much thyroid hormone. And I'm like, I have to educate the patient.
You're going to have to. You're going to have to stick up for yourself here. At some point, I won't be able to do it and explain, no, your pituitary gland just isn't making tsh. And that's really obvious.
And I don't understand why that's not obvious to doctors that at this point we're going to ignore TSH and we're just going to follow T4, T3 and their blood pressure and pulse, etc. Those are the most common. But low testosterone levels, that could be low FSH and lh, that could also be a hypothalamic issue. Low gonadotropic releasing hormone. So now these are all things that when you start balancing them, people feel better. Right.
But it's never just one thing. You know, it's like you're getting hit on the head by nine hammers and you take a couple away. It still hurts.
And you have to educate patients. Don't expect anything right away. We're. We're just going to try one thing at a time to try to get you into balance and please be patient.
So, yeah, that. Those are the most common pituitary problems I see.
I used to make this. The connection. I made that connection in my book that particularly when I see diabetes cipus, I think of mold toxins.
I don't know. You know, I see it so often. I don't know that there's. I do think it's associated with toxins, but remember, cytokines are toxins, so it might just be inflammation.
But here's something important about mycotoxin panels.
They can be very misleading.
And here's what I mean.
I was seeing patients with minor mild elevations in mold toxins in their urine, but they were still having inflammatory issues, so we decided to treat it. And, and we're giving them antifungals and we're giving them toxin binders and they often are feeling better.
And then we repeat the mycotoxin panel. And now there are many more mycotoxins, like, wait a minute, what's going on here?
So I talked to my, my pal Neil Nathan, who wrote the book Toxic. You may have interviewed him. Great guy.
He said, yeah, I see this all the time.
He's convinced that the presence of mold toxins actually inhibits the capacity of the kidneys to excrete mold toxins.
That as we treat it, as we knock down the fungi that are generating the toxins, and as we give people the toxin binders and they get better, then we see an increase in urinary output. This has been so true that now when I do a mycotoxin panel and it's. And there's very low to zero mycotoxins, I'm even more suspicious that mold is a problem.
And I prescribe a lot of itraconazole, sometimes voriconazole.
Sometimes it just makes a huge difference.
Often it makes a huge difference.
So that's one more issue. I'm sure, as you're aware, Michael, there's so many people with mold issues.
You know, we've evolved with mold. We didn't used to have mold issues. I don't believe, but it's not uncommon that someone who's living in a moldy house, who had no problems living in the moldy house, got lime. Now they have a big problem with the moldy house.
The converse, or the inverse is also true in that people have problems with lime, and it doesn't become a problem until they enter a moldy house. Then the lime becomes a problem.
There's, you know, go back to that beaker metaphor. You know, these things add up and spill over, and that's why we have to do so much detective work.
That's what I call myself, a medical detective. I think all of us who do this work are medical detectives, not just me.
[00:45:17] Speaker B: And sometimes you just need to kind of. When you have so many factors, sometimes you need to just kind of pull one of the strings and then just start to try to unravel it. And, I mean, it's impossible to kind of hit everything all at once. And you just get to assess, you know, what is the body able to do? And. And then start kind of pulling and see how the body's responding to it.
[00:45:41] Speaker D: I like that metaphor, pulling the strings. You know, similar to, like, peeling the onion, you know, just.
Exactly. I. I really am so careful about staggering the onset of interventions, and I really drive it home that we're going to do one thing at a time. Do not change two things at once. We want to know how you're responding. We want to know if you tolerate it.
Sometimes people don't tolerate very, very simple interventions, especially these, you know, incredibly inflamed individuals.
So.
And also another thing that's really important is to educate people about the Herxheimer reactions.
So for the audience, you know, there were two doctors, they didn't know each other, but Yarish and Herxheimer, they were treating tertiary syphilis back then. They were treating it by giving mercury injections. This is before penicillin. Right. Okay, what they both noticed is that often these patients with tertiary syphilis would get worse and then they'd get better. And they each theorized that there were toxins being released by the bacteria that were causing this inflammation.
We believe, now, we don't know definitively, but we believe there are components of the cell membranes in particular that trigger a cytokine cascade that is an inflammatory cascade.
This doesn't just happen with Lyme or syphilis, happens with other microbes.
And we see it not universally, but we see it in probably most of our patients when we give antimicrobials. And so we have to warn our patients. Right.
The point is that there's a big difference between a good Herxheimer and a bad Herxheimer.
Despite my trying so hard, there's still some patients who don't take the lesson home. And they're having bad Herxheimer's and they just continue the treatment. A month later they said, oh, my God, I feel so sick. Well, when did it start? Well, three weeks ago when I went on X.
A bad Herx. Let me start with a good Herx. I'm a good Herxheimer is one in which there's a mild flare in symptoms.
It goes away typically within a week, and then you feel better. That's a good Herxheimer. Bad Herxheimer is a bad major flare in symptoms. Puts you crashing, you know, puts you to bed feeling absolutely terrible and it's not getting better.
And specifically because I think you're seeing a similar population of patients as I, and these people have been chronically ill. It's not like someone who just got sick a month ago in a bullseye rash. They can tolerate a bad Herxheimer. They'll get over it quickly because they've got resilience. They haven't been sick for a decade like most of our patients.
But those who have been sick for a long time, they do not have resilience.
And I have to keep on telling patients, this is not good for you. Do not be a cowboy. Do not think that, oh, you're going to suffer through this and then you're going to be so much better on the other side because it's going to make you worse and it's going to make you more intolerant to the other interventions we want to give you.
So we're going to back off if you're having a significant flare in symptoms.
Just wanted to get that in.
[00:49:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's so crucial. And it's important for patients to understand that as you Go after these different pathogens, even ever so slightly, you need the resources, your mitochondrial resources, nutritional resources, detox resources in order to be able to deal with, with going after them. And so that's why it's so important to support them in all these other areas when we start to push a little bit on the pathogen load.
[00:49:46] Speaker D: It's a really important point, Michael. And you know, I didn't mention detoxification, but it's so important.
I mean we start off with we're all toxic. I mean everyone on the planet is toxic at this point.
And, and we need, we need to support the intracellular pathways, we need to support the, the organs, we need to support the lymphatics, all of the above.
Sometimes it's really interesting. I'm just thinking of a patient who emailed me today.
This is someone significant. Childhood trauma, some trauma as a young adult, got Lyme and co infections. But she just willed herself to move forward and it was really highly functional in the corporate world and successful.
And then she got Covid and what made it even worse was the E.R. gave her prednisone. Stewards, the E.R. gives everyone steroids. I don't know what the hell they think they're doing. If you have a cold and you go to the er, they give you steroids.
Excuse me. I had a patient who got aseptic necrosis of the hip and needed a hip replacement because they gave him a medrol dose pack.
Any rate, she crashed. I mean totally crashed. She's totally non functional and just multi symptomatic and life was misery.
And it was so interesting because you know how she had blocked everything.
That's when her childhood history came up.
And one of the things that we put her on was a homeopathic drainage remedy remedy for her lymphatics.
Whoa. She could not tolerate that. I actually had her say, I said, I want you to just hold it in your hand for a little while. Don't even take it yet.
And eventually she was able to go on a low dose and start to take it. Getting lymphatic massages, which she also had to do. As you know, lymphatic massages are the most gentle massage you can get. But she had to do it slowly, you know, because she had just held everything so tight that she, you couldn't just open up those pathways.
She just, she had to do it very gradually. And we just have to be tuned attuned to these things and treat each patient as an individual and honor them.
[00:52:24] Speaker B: And that, I mean you're making an Excellent. I mean, many excellent points. But one thing is that, you know, when we're holding emotions tight, you know, we are then holding toxins tight. We are not able. And so when we start to try to move toxins, you know, there's a huge defense mechanism where the body's trying to protect those traumas or those emotions, you know, so you have to then recognize that both of them go hand in hand, and you get to kind of play a little bit on both sides at the same time, you know.
[00:53:00] Speaker D: I saw a patient today.
She's great. I love her. I. I love most of my patients.
I don't love all my patients. That. That would be too much, but most of them I love and they love me, which is even better. At any rate, this woman is quite wonderful. Oh, my God. Traumatic childhood and history.
And she was talking about how lots of things I recommended, they. They really help her. She felt better for weeks, and then it stopped working.
And this happened over and over.
So we did what you might call a healing. Just getting inquisitive about what was this energy that was holding her back.
And it was this energy that was.
She envisioned it and she said, it's keeping me in a bubble.
It's trying to protect me.
And she did some internal family systems work with it. You know, this was the way she envisioned a protector and to how. And she dialogued with it to help it understand that she's evolved and this energy needs to evolve with her and become an ally instead of just protecting and shutting her down.
That's really important, that level of intervention. For her body to be able to accept what's going to help her heal is so interesting how we manifest on so many different levels. And wow, there's so much work for us to do.
[00:54:42] Speaker B: Yeah, there is. And. And that. That's the thing is that, yeah, I mean, it's not just about antibiotics. You know, when people think about Lyme, you just go after it with antibiotics and going to kill the Lyme. And, you know, the issue is that if you have an environment that is friendly to these pathogens and then you're.
[00:55:03] Speaker D: You're.
[00:55:04] Speaker B: They're just going to come back and settle in. So you got to do all this other work alongside with it in order to be able to create an environment, you know, that is. Then, you know that we can live in harmony with these pathogens because, you know, like I said, there's no way to kill them all. I mean, we. And we really don't have a test to check to see if they're all gone. But, you know, we can be in remission and we can then live harmoniously with our environment and with these different agents, microbial agents.
[00:55:38] Speaker D: Harmony. Good word.
[00:55:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, just kind of as a final. I mean, what. Because the detection is always the question. And you mentioned, like with mold, you know, there, the labs really don't tell the story. And I know with Lyme, sometimes if our immune system is not where it needs to be, then we don't have the antibody responses or we don't have the responses to be able to detect it. I mean, how do you. In your mind, I mean, do you go mostly just on symptomology or are there certain labs that you feel that if I see it here or I most likely will see it on these labs.
[00:56:24] Speaker D: Okay, an interesting question.
For someone to get in to see me, they need to have tested positive for a lung.
That's not going to be LabCorp or Quest. Most of the time, if people call my office, we'll get them tested, you know, without there being my patient. We'll get them tested at Igenex.
There are other specialty labs. I personally think Igenex does the best job, but I'm sure that's up for debate by other people.
And they're tests that don't have labs. I don't have confidence in who do specialized testing.
I think that if one knows how to interpret the labs, that Hygienex sensitivity for Lyme is going to be over 90%.
Again, one has to know how to interpret. It's not just black and white.
What the Igenx criteria. Certainly not the CDC criteria, but putting that together with the symptoms. Now, if someone's positive for Lyme, then co infections are suspect. The testing for CO infections is improving, but not great.
And so I would say most of the people I diagnose with Bartonella, which is probably over half my patients I'm going to diagnose clinically.
And if I'm not sure, I'll give them a therapeutic trial and see what happens. You know, this is interesting. I have a patient who's an oncologist in London and he's been sick for about 10 years.
He had Lyme, it was well defined and he was treated.
But he's had severe brain fog and fatigue and other symptoms ever since.
I listened to his symptoms and I said, gee, I really.
I think it's more likely than not that you have Bartonella.
And as you know, when we see a monopoly of neurological symptoms, think Bartonella.
Okay?
Getting him tested was one option. I mean, it is possible to get those tests done from overseas, but the bartonella testing still isn't great. I would say 60% sensitivity at best is my clinical experience.
So I said, well, let's give you a challenge with abart and got him some abart. He took five drops, put him to bed for the better part of a week, but then he had the best few weeks in a year. You know, it was really interesting.
Here's what's so interesting.
He's, you know, well defined western medicine doctor, and he's impressed by what I'm doing for him.
And there's a part of him that still doesn't believe it. Isn't there some test we can do to prove I have bartonella?
And I said, well, we can do more tests, but it's not going to change my mind. You know, it's. It's up to you, you know, so once they get in the door, then I'm, then I'm going to be suspect of everything.
And it's gonna, there's going to be a lot of clinical diagnosis, there's going to be a lot of suspicion of all of these issues you and I have just talked about, Michael.
And, and I have to say, the art of medicine is, is knowing where to start with what's happening with that patient and, and really honoring where they're at and, and, and working with them.
You know, not just writing a prescription, but just really tuning in every time I see them to what happened when you did this and so on.
One step at a time.
[01:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
Well, Daniel, Dr. Kinder, this is, it's such a pleasure, such an honor, and I have such a tremendous respect for individuals like yourself, like Dr. Jonathan Wright, you know, people that, you know, Lee Cowden, you know, people that kind of were there in the trenches early on and have really been moving these, this kind of information forward, you know, that we all can build upon. And so thank you so much for that and for taking this time with me today.
[01:01:15] Speaker D: You're very welcome. Thanks for this opportunity. It was really a pleasure to meet you.
[01:01:19] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:01:27] Speaker A: The information this podcast is for educational purposes only, and it's not designed to diagnose or treat any disease. I hope that this podcast impacted you as it did me. Please subscribe so that you can be notified when new episodes are released. There are some excellent shows coming up that you do not want to miss. If you're enjoying these podcasts, please take a moment to write a review. And please don't keep this information to yourself. Share them with your family. And friends. You never know what piece of information that will transform their lives. For past episodes and powerful information on how to contact Conquer lyme, go to integrativelimesolutions.com and an additional powerful resource, limestream.com for Lyme support and group discussions. Join Lyme Conquerors Mentoring Lyme warriors on Facebook. If you'd like to know more about the cutting edge integrative Lyme therapies my center offers, please visit thecarlfieldcenter.com thank you for spending this time with us and I hope to see you at our next episode of Integrative Lyme Solutions with Dr. Karl Feld.
