Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome back to Integrative lyme Solutions with Dr. Karl Feldt. I am so excited about the show that we have ahead of us. We have some phenomenal information that could save lives.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: You're gonna need to tune in to what's going on today. The information is jam packed, so don't step away.
[00:00:24] Speaker C: Hello.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining Integrative lyme Solutions with Dr. Karl Feld. I am your host, Dr. Michael Karlfeld. I've been in clinical practice since 1987. I've seen pretty much everything under the sun, worked with so many different Lyme patients, and I know what a devastating disease this is. That's why I'm doing this podcast to make sure that you are armed with the information that you need in order to be able to be successful in your struggle with Lyme. We'll be featuring authors, doctors, professors, and also people like yourself that have gone through the journey that you're going through, that have been where you've been and is now on the other side. And they get to tell their victorious story as to how they battle Lyme so that you can implement that in your life as well. Be sure to like us and write a review on whichever platform that you're listening on. What that does is it enables other people to see us more so that they have access to this information as well. So I'm so excited that you're tuning in and get ready for this upcoming show. It is going to be amazing.
Welcome to Integrative lyme solution with Dr. Karl Feld. I'm so, so excited to have Dr. Chris Winfrey with me today.
He is an amazing doctor, and one of the components that we really want to dive deep into is kind of the psychological, emotional, the mental aspect of people battling Lyme. Dr. Winfrey, thank you so much for being with me here today.
[00:02:06] Speaker C: Thank you. Go ahead.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: So, yeah, I'm always curious as a medical doctor, why Lyme? Why get into Lyme?
[00:02:17] Speaker C: For me, I think much of how I've gotten to most places in my life has kind of been organic and just kind of following the path, following different triggers or following different messages, just kind of being organic and intuitive. And I think for me, this was not on my radar. I think maybe I learned about it in medical school, but as I got into my practice and I started having difficult cases, cases where people weren't responding to, you know, traditional sort of protocols and things of that nature, it left me curious.
And then when I had my own sort of crisis and discovered that that was an experience of Mine. It didn't open the door for me to dive into it much deeper.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's one of those. When you. When you see people suffering and you.
[00:03:07] Speaker C: You.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: You recognize that there are more tools that are needed. And, And. And that's exactly that. You just recognize whatever the, the common knowledge that you learn in medical school is just not enough. And then you have to dig deeper to. And understand what people are really going through.
So some. I'm. I'm curious. Yeah. One of the components. I mean, you have different aspects of Lyme. You have, you know, where you have the physical. You know, we have the aches and pains and chronic fatigue, but then kind of the psychological, you know, can you talk to a little bit about what you have seen, what goes on, and people, how they're impacted emotionally, mentally, going through Lyme, Because Lyme. Lyme is such a. Such a devastating journey for so many different people.
[00:03:57] Speaker C: So there are a lot of different parts that we can dive into. So I might break this down into a couple parts. So the first part is when one contracted it in the degree that is impacting them neuropsychiatrically, if they. If we're talking about congenital Lyme or early acquired line, where the developmental tracks of the child are largely being impacted, it's much different than if someone who's gone through development in those, particularly those early stages decently well, and then maybe they had a hiking trip or something when they was 35 years old or so and they contracted it. Then we're talking about two different sort of psychological challenges. When it's early in life or particularly congenitally, we're talking about having the impact on personality development. We're talking about having the impact on morality, we're talking about having an impact on impulse control and some of these sort of earlier sort of developmental brain tasks that need to be developed. One of the things that I can kind of gather when I meet someone and I see that they have a positive test, I can kind of gather how long they've had it by looking at these sort of psychological, developmental tracks. And if I can hear in their story, very early childhood troubles, issues with what we might call object relations, where they have role confusion or confusion with authority, issues of defiance and things of that nature. It gives me an idea that they may have contracted very early and those particular brain structures that deal with responding to people interpersonally are challenged and they're compromised for them.
I think about where as a child is developing and if they're developing with Lyme. Another aspect of it is, for some people, it's harder to treat them the longer they've had it, particularly if they had it very early, because it's grown with them. And the early child around the age of two, has a transitional object to help her transition from the mother.
For some kids, it's a teddy bear or some object that kind of has the essence of the mother that comforts them when they're separated from the mother. And in some instances, Lyme can be like a transitional object. It's very difficult to help some people treat this illness and transition out of this space, because this is all they've ever known. And to enter into a different space where they're going to largely feel different, think differently, have a different personality. So the expression that can be scary and daunting for them, it can really bring about a lot of separation anxiety, a lot of grief, a lot of angst. They may even have to change their circle of friends and different things, because sometimes people will Lyme, they develop toxic personalities. And then they build their friend group all around that. And their friends are very similar to them because of a bear flock together. So then as they're growing and developing and healing, then they may not energetically be as attracted to those particular friends anymore. And so they may have to get a different group of friends. So that brings about another loss and another sort of grief that they have to experience. And so that particular struggle is really hard when it's like really early on.
I think when we're talking also, if there's in the adolescent phase, it can be very similar struggles where if they had it very early or if they contracted it at that particular time. This is another burst of developmental challenges that the adolescent would go through where they have to figure out who they are and what kind of friends they're going to have. Sexuality. They have bodies growing, and so they are developing this adult body, but they still have an immature mind. And yet they have this infection that's impeding their solar growth and development psychologically. And so they are having to contend with this sort of rapid expansion, this rapid growth, and yet their mind can expand at the same level of rapid expectations and demands that's been put on them from school, their parents, especially when they get into late adolescence, they have to then begin to think about going into the world, and life is demanding more of them. But because they're having trouble with thinking, they're having trouble regulating their emotions, they're having trouble with processing their experience.
Separating at that phase can be difficult. Too. And so sometimes what we see is people don't make it through school. They don't graduate or they need to take a year off or so or they're still living at home with their parents. They're kind of, you know, an extended adolescence if you will. It's as a hard transition.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: Hello, dear listeners. This is Dr. Michael Karlfeld your host of integrative Lyme solutions.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: And that's today. I'm excited to share a lot of the opportunity from the. This is not a discussion that we blend before having this show for breaking therapies to combat Lyme disease and associated challenges discussion that. That you're getting and it's really not just fascinating to revolutionizing the way it's treated.
Obviously if you're the congenital dynamic therapy. Yeah. How that body falls on your ability to develop individual autonomic response testing depending on where you were supporting your body's immune system. Has there been any kind of studies observed the brain, the nerve mitochondrial health activity. Yeah. Holistic life that had understanding Lyme disease complex. Which is why we're offering a free 15 minute discovery call with one of.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Our Lyme literate naturopathic doctors. This call is your first step towards understanding.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: That's interesting. So personalize your focus. Yeah. It's almost like you're thinking of an individual that is born and that's three different culture and then recovery with the most advanced diagnostic tools. Another culture that used to live in.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: That world to restore your health and by.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah. They just don't have the tools or the means or the understanding strategies of what's going on around you. You are. You're functioning at a different level.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Reclaiming your health. Visit us at thecarlfulcenter.com or call us at 208 how to schedule your free discovery.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: How can parents always believe Parent. Thank you for tuning in with Dr. Carl. And then there's always a concern absence of disease. I almost feel bad.
Yeah. Because I'm concerned that child is then going to go through the same struggle that I'm going through. You know, how as a parent can they kind of support that journey of their child? You know, from. From the get go.
[00:10:52] Speaker C: Yeah. I think if a parent is they come to the knowledge that they have contracted or acquired Lyme while they're pregnant.
You know, certainly there's a lot of discussion on our forums about how to approach that. And certainly treatment DN is of utmost importance and there's some safe ways to go about that. But if it is in some sort of way a contraindication or there's a concern that they can't do it while pregnant, then certainly there's methods and approaches they can take when postnatally to kind of get the child treatment early.
When called early, the child can see they have a pretty good outcome.
But that is key in terms of getting early. I think when there is sort of concern about it getting into the, to the eggs or into the sperm and the very early zygote begins to form. The concern there is if the Lyme is there, then every cell that's kind of dividing out of that early cell potentially has Lyme in it and it's impacting the DNA transcription and everything that's evolving out of that.
And we can see in some ways a lot of challenges, developmental issues and things can arise out of that sort of phenomenon. And so it is in some port if a parent is preparing to get pregnant and they know they have it, to try to as much as possible treat before. But if they are pregnant and they didn't get a chance to treat before.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: As soon as possible.
[00:12:26] Speaker C: I think the early treatment is the best key in policy here.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: And when you say treatment, I mean obviously there are a lot of ways to go about things in your mind. What would be the best, you know, recourse for a parent knowing they have Lyme and then having a child or becoming pregnant? You know, what, what are some of the interventions that you feel should be implemented?
[00:12:54] Speaker C: That's a very individually based case. Whether. So the groups of treatments that we have are, we have herbals, we have antibiotics, we have now sort of treatments called sot. We have other antimicrobials such as ozone and different things of that nature. We have homeopathic agents that can be used to be helpful. It really depends on where a person is and their personality, their belief system, their constitution, their other medical problems in terms of what would be the best course of action. And that's certainly the very individual, case based, case by case situation.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Talk to me a little about sot. I don't think a lot of people out there are aware of what that.
[00:13:42] Speaker C: Is supportive illegal therapy.
SOT is a treatment where you draw your blood and they find the microbe in your serum and they map out the DNA of it and then they make what is like a phage technology where it's going to be inhibiting the growth of the microbe. And so they take it and you inject it back into the body and for about a six month period of time is floating around in the body, finding the particular Pattern that it matches with and is inhibiting the machinery of the microbial cell. So it helps to combat it. It's not antibiotic or anything like that.
And for some people, if you can match the treatment to the right microbe or antigen that is impacting them, it can be very helpful. But then there's a little trial and error. Now you can have a little hit and miss if you are not hitting the one that's impacting the immune system the most.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there are a lot of people that had tremendous success with. With the sot. I know, but you're. You're absolutely right. You got to make sure that you have the. The appropriate microbe. So you can't just kind of, yeah. Say I think you have Borrelia and then just do SOT on Borrelia. You gotta do the test and really identify the microbe and then being able then to create the appropriate SOT for that microbe.
I know you're saying it's individually. I know some people say that, well, you should do like Dr. Klinghardt, for instance, chatting with him and said, well, you should be on sister's tea while you're pregnant, if, you know, or some people be on a little bit doxycycline while you're pregnant, just to kind of suppress the Lyme while you're pregnant. And that. That helps. But I agree with you. It is good to connect with a provider to really guide you through that journey, to make sure that it is the appropriate intervention while being pregnant or breastfeeding or whatever it may be, how, you know, you talked a little bit about kind of looking at how the child is developing and then concluding based upon that, that maybe that child has been impacted congenitally by Lyme. So what are you mentioned, how they relate, how they interact with objects, how they, you know, what are. If you don't mind, again, just kind of going through what's kind of a checklist that a parent need to look at to be able to evaluate their child.
[00:16:28] Speaker C: So I think if we're saying, if we're looking at child postnatally and we see things that kind of deviate from a sort of normative or range. So if we see a child that's really colicky, if we see a child that is having gastrointestinal issues very early on, if we're seeing a child that seemingly can be consoled very easily, needs a lot of tension, a lot of warmth, a lot of nurturing to kind of console and calm down, if we see a child that's easily disturbed more than your average infant or so, by noise disturbances and things of that nature. These are some signs that the immune system is being impacted, the nervous system is being impacted, and this could be a sign of that. This child is congenital Lyme.
When we get to around the age of two and the child has to potty train sometimes because Lyme hits the gastrointestinal tract and it can slow it down, we see some children struggle with constipation, and they need to potty train. And this is the phase where it's the anal phase of development. And so some children can hold in a lot longer, and they can get into power struggles with their parents and things of that nature. That could be a sign that the child is being impacted by Lyme. What we would like to see, the child has a really healthy gastrointestinal tract, and with a little encouragement from the parent, they can go and potty train decently well. But if it becomes much more than it becomes a whole thing, it's something to think about. Now, certainly, there could be other conditions that could prompt such an occurrence, but this is one thing to think about.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: And when you're seeing. Because you talked earlier about that developmental aspect as a child, you're then developing with Lyme, and then there's a different trajectory in your developmental process. Are there outside of just kind of supplementation, intravenous things, antibiotics, are there other tools that the mother or the parents can bring in to then help the child to develop, knowing that they are being challenged due to the Lyme, you know, like, you know, speech therapies? I mean, I mean, are there things out there that you feel could be really beneficial to bring on board outside of just supplementation and medication?
[00:19:15] Speaker C: So my general philosophy for myself, and when I think and I'm working with a patient as a provider, I'm all hands on deck. And my belief is, if it works, let's do it. We live in a world where, I think in 2025, we're not short of any treatments to really handle a lot of conditions. And so I see. And I see to kind of prolong suffering is not the way to go. And so in addition to antimicrobials and any other biological agent, we need to also consider psychosocial agents as well, whether that, as you say, be speech therapy or occupational therapy, behavior therapy, sometimes physical therapy for these situations, if it's hidden, the sort of motor tracks of the body and things of that nature.
But in assessing any person, we want to put all hands on deck and do anything and everything that's possible to bring about recovery and healing.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: I'm curious. And then we also have the explosion of autism.
Do you feel that Lyme plays a role in the escalation of autism that we're seeing as well? I mean, obviously a lot of other factors, but do you feel that that plays a role?
[00:20:31] Speaker C: I think it's certainly, you know, something that is on the plate of considering. You know, I have some patients that are on the spectrum, and when we started to address their Lyme, we started to see some changes. I think that there's a. Obviously it's a political issue, It's a hot button issue, but I definitely think one possible contribution to the autism complex is Lyme disease.
And there's a strong possibility is in some ways congenital that we can see. An earlier case of autism began to emerge because it's congenitally affecting the DNA infecting the cellular manifestations early on.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:21] Speaker C: And.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: And. And that's the thing, is that when you deal with these, you know, complex health issues or, you know, you know, emotional, mental, you know, dysregulations, and, you know, there's so many different factors that are involved. And, you know, you. It's good then to not exclude factors like Lyme. I mean, obviously you want to look at, you know, heavy metals and chemicals and food sensitivities and all of these things, but, you know, all of that comes part of the whole picture as a provider like yourself, you know, to analyze and go through. And that's why it's so important to work with someone like yourself, you know, through that kind of a process.
You talked a lot. You kind of mentioned in regards to, you know, the gut and the brain, and, you know, saying that Lyme then impacts, you know, the gut. And there's a lot of.
Yeah, there's a lot of issues in that area. So tell me a little bit. Why is gut so connected to the brain? And why is it so important that we address that when we see any kind of developmental disorders?
[00:22:33] Speaker C: Yeah, so the brain and the spinal cord is part of the central nervous system.
And the word center is the operative word there, meaning there's something in the peripheral.
And so there are peripheral nervous systems as well. And so there's an autonomic nervous system. There is in the gut, the enteric nervous system.
The immune system has a nervous system component that it relates to as well. And so when we're talking about having a functioning. A well, functioning nervous system, the emphasis oftentimes goes toward the brain mostly. But the brain is the central nervous system. It's the central coordinate of all the nervous systems of the body. And so they all talk to each other. And so if one or two nervous systems get off, such as in the gut, is going to have an impact on the central nervous system of the brain and vice versa. And so I think it's important to, if we're talking about mental health, let's say we're talking about have a well functioning mind that is a product of your entire body and it's a product of largely of these sort of coordinations in your nervous system. But that is not just about the brain.
All the other nervous systems impact mental health. And that's why it's really important from that perspective to try to have an overall coordination. When we're talking about having a functioning nervous system.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Yeah, we often think that the brain is the one that is. Everything just kind of comes from the brain and it's just a communication in one direction. In reality it's a co creation. The nervous system on the outside, you're talking about the peripheral and the central nervous system.
They communicate back and forth and the one stimulate the other. And so that's why the enteric nervous system along the gut lining becomes so involved with the brain development. But also I think like movement, sports, running in the forest, all these different things that hand, eye, you know, adjusting to nature, adjusting to, you know, flying objects, etc. That, that you know, also part of that kind of training of the central nervous system when you're using your, your peripheral nervous system to send signals and stimulate regeneration of, of the central.
[00:25:10] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: So what, and then let's, let's kind of move forward a little bit. And I really appreciate you kind of bringing this up, you know, because it's hard for people to understand that it depends on kind of where the individual, you know, when they contracted Lyme, where they start to then have challenges and in their, in their journey, in their developmental journey. Because obviously if you like you mentioned, if you're as an adult contracting it, then you've had the opportunity to do all the development, development as a child, as a teenager and then it's easier than to kind of get back to normalcy. But if you never had that experience, you grew up with having a dysregulation from the get go, it is hard then to find that normalcy.
So how do you feel? Let's say you have somebody that had it as a child and then kind of went through all those phases and then as an adult, you know, now realize that, you know, I had Lyme, because a lot of times, you know, you, you know, you have these people that are growing up and they don't recognize that all their issues that they had was due to Lyme. And now they may be kind of crashing when they're 35, 40 and can't get out of bed, can't. But they still had that whole journey. Is there a way, you know, for people to maybe kind of backtrack? I mean, are there certain kind of, I don't know, recall healing or any. Anything that they can do to maybe kind of COVID up for what they missed in development as a child, if they recognize it as an adult?
[00:27:00] Speaker C: That's an interesting question.
Can you give back what you lost is the question.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Yes. Yes, exactly. Is there a way to kind of enrich those areas that you. That didn't develop, you know, due to that, that early, that. That missing childhood development that you had, you know, when you recognize as an adult that you. That you missed it?
[00:27:26] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. So you can enrich things later, but you can't get back what you lost.
And that then becomes a psychotherapeutic endeavor in which you have to do the work of grief therapy and you have to, in some ways, come to understand what you wished for, what wishes were unmet, the pain and the sadness and the grief that accompanies the unfulfilled wishes, how that has impacted you throughout your life.
And then you, in some ways, throughout the process, have to have a ceremony and a funeral to kind of put that to rest and to bear that and to find your way, find a way to move forward from it.
I'm not suggesting that's easy.
I am suggesting it's important and critical. And I think I hear this time and time again when people come into the knowledge of what's going on with them and what has occurred and that process of mental engagement causes them to do like a flashback over so many sectors of their life where they started to put the two and two together and say, oh, that's why this, or that's why that, oh, now this makes sense type of thing. And their mind, their ego, has to try to make sense of this narrative that they've created. And for many people, they've created a false narrative or a narrative that they could best construct based on the information understanding they have. And we're always remodeling our sort of self narrative.
But this certainly becomes a major, major influencer to narrative creation and how we derive it. Meaning that has to be addressed and revisited. So we can't get back moments and things that we lost. We certainly can make sense of them and put them in a perspective that we can use moving forward. But there will be to some degree, a degree of grief and loss and a hole there that one feels. And how big it is is going to vary from one person to the next.
But I think with all hands on deck, again, not only just in the psychological process, therapeutic process like that, I think using other things like TMS to help, you know, retrain those nerves and different parts of the brain that deal with our autobiographical sort of nerve to help reform it, because that is also damaged too. A lot of people with Lyme have a hard time constructing a self narrative and living out this sort of autobiographical truth. And that has to be repaired as well.
And that is something that's beyond the antibiotics, that also gets into the spiritual realm and who they are, beyond just this human physical nature here.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: And one thing that I've always been fascinated with as well. I mean, because we know.
We know these different microbes, different pathogens, they exist in nature, they evolve, they kind of adjust based upon the environment, the toxins they're exposed to, changes in seasons, microwave frequencies, and EMF and all of that. Do you feel that sometimes they also bring a certain intelligence that give us an advantage for survival because they are faster, obviously, at adapting to changes in nature than we as a larger organism is. Do you feel that there sometimes is a benefit?
[00:31:26] Speaker C: All right, so I want to answer this question.
I want to run back to one other observation I made to an earlier question.
Now, I don't know of any studies on this, but this certainly is an observation of mine, and I think some other people as well. I do think that there's an intelligence that.
And we're getting into a different little area here. I do think there's an intelligence that come with these microbes, and they have been around for a long time. And I think that if we can program as humans information into our DNA, that also microbes can program information today. DNA. And that intelligence that's in the DNA, once it gets into our body, they bring that intelligence into our body as well, and then gets into our genome and then into our intelligence system in our body and then transmits signals. I know this sound for some people that's going to hear this, it's going to sound a little out there. But I began to think about this because I had patients tell me things like, I don't know where that thought came from, or I'm Committing this action. I can't explain why I did this. Or they have some knowledge that they can't quite pinpoint how they came by this knowledge. And they might say it's just a feeling or just a. It's an intuition or so, but it's. It's not. Often intuition has some sort of immediacy to it. You can kind of derive it where it came from. But this is. Goes beyond that a little bit more, where you get into moments of premonition and different things like that. I think that there is something to it, and it really raised the question, how bad is Lyme from their perspective? I mean, it gives you some. There's some positive benefit in it. And maybe we can have that conversation if it just wasn't so destructive in other ways. But I do think that there's this thing that maybe possibly is carrying some historical knowledge that. Where people have knowledge of historical moments they've never been to and never experience. No one in family experience, but they have this knowledge of things.
It's a thought.
[00:33:37] Speaker B: Yeah, because you have, you know, that. That kind of idea of quorum sensing. Yeah. Where you have all these different pathogens that. That function as a quorum and kind of bring intelligence to each other in some fashion, you know, outside of. Of chemical signaling. And so it. It. It's. It's always. That's always been fascinating to me. And then kind of considering like Mozart, you know, syphilis, you know, being. In fact. And so maybe somehow these pathogens are adjusting the neural network in a way so that you are more able in certain areas, but then having challenges in others.
It's just kind of a.
Essentially we are all coexisting, and by finding that relationship with the bugs around us within us, we can then more able, function and survive and gain advantages, so to say, as individuals within our environment.
[00:34:43] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:34:46] Speaker B: So when you see a Lyme patient, what is usually your journey? What does that usually look like?
[00:34:57] Speaker C: So before I answer, I want to. I want to answer another question. You asked about parents who have children and have a Lyme and different things. What is another thing that I noticed in terms of considering when I see either an adult or a child have significant issues with their parents, and sometimes particularly the mother more than the father, where it almost becomes a blame of, you've ruined my entire life.
These are some of the most difficult moments to handle, the most confusing moments to handle. Everybody involved is overwhelmed, is chaotic, it's disorganized, and sometimes it's nonsensical.
I was taught I'm psychoanalytically trained Freudian based analysis. So if people listening will know that Freud, you know, is famous for laying you on the couch when you talk about your mother and how your life has been impacted by your parents. It's not that simplistic. That's kind of the overly simplification of. It's much more than that as psychoanalytic training and observation have evolved. But at that time it was a fascination up here. This what I have noticed, particularly some kids who are doing that.
It made me wonder about congenital lying that when the child is saying, you have messed up my life, you're responsible for my life, this is way what I think they might be communicating is not so much the biological mother themselves, but the loss of the mothering function of the mind that might have been destroyed in utero. And so they can't put their finger on that it was this bug maybe that got transmitted to them that's creating so much destruction.
So they say it's the mother. And so the way blame works is when we can't adequately identify what's causing the problem, we find the next best thing that makes the most sense to us. And sometimes that's the mother. And so if I see a child that just blaming the mother for every single thing and especially going all the way back to very early moments, that makes me sometimes think about congenital alignment as well. When I see that sort of dynamic playing out.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: I love. And before you answer that, the other question I had.
So do you feel, I mean, as a psychoanalyst, I mean, do you feel that there's a certain kind of mindset or psychosis or psychical, you know, I'm sorry, psychological kind of mindset that makes you more prone to exhibit symptoms of Lyme versus others? I mean, have you kind of gone into that in any way.
[00:38:01] Speaker C: To exhibit or to come in contact with?
[00:38:04] Speaker B: So, meaning that, you know, do you feel. Because we're always in contact with pathogens. Yeah, we're, we're, you know, we're. You know, a lot of people may have the borrelia, but they don't have blind. Yeah. So do you, do you feel that there's a certain psychological set point or I don't know what you would call it that make you then more prone to exhibit symptoms of Lyme when having the bug inside?
[00:38:34] Speaker C: That's a tough one because my. The way I understand this is we have the physical and then the metaphysical. The mind is meta. Means above. So the mind is above. The body is a.
The mind comes out of the body. So how our mind develop is developing out of our physical structure enough in us physiological structure. So if it's already there, then is already playing a role into this sort of emergence of this sort of mental structure.
I think in some ways, Dan is in now in the unconscious, and it is impacting the person's decision and how they move about and make decisions that then can activate it later. So I think that makes sense to me.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: So it's. Yeah, because I. It's. It's almost in my mind. It's a little bit of chicken and the egg kind of thing. You know, is there a kind of a. Kind of a generational, you know, generational kind of psychological set point that make you more prone to versus And I actually mentioned, you know, the. The bug in itself is that shifting down the mindset, you know.
Yeah. To me, that. That's kind of fascinating. You can also see kind of when you have that. That generational where you have an individual, you know, that, you know, they have a child. They have a child, and there's kind of a trauma that is perpetuated. You know, if that trauma in itself does that create then a kind of environment that that bug can proliferate more easily in when that trauma is passed. Passed on.
[00:40:22] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really important observation and question.
Let's say is there but it's not active? Let's say it's impacting the immune system and. Or the neurological structure, but it's not really taking yet strong shape and form. But let's say that you're in an environment where your parents have it and they're being impacted by it, and they're having struggles and they're creating a family structure or a home environment that's not conducive to feeling safe and supported. And so you're having more stress put on your system that you can't quite modulate and regulate very well. Then that then weakens the immune system even more, that then collapse, more proliferation, and then becomes more and more of a vicious cycle until it's just gotten out of hand. Certainly we see that sort of, as you said, the chicken and egg kind of playing back and forth and that sort of dynamic.
And then, you know, you have people.
We, we. We make decisions. What are the colors that we choose to be attracted to in the clothes we wear, the environments that we go into, the music that we listen to, the friends that we have. There's a certain energy to all of that. And a lot of times when people Lyme, like in Leprosy back in the day, Lime people kind of hang out with each other and so you get that, you get some reinforcement with that and that all kind of contributes as well these subsequent decisions that are made.
[00:41:51] Speaker B: Yeah, you have that phenomenon that was called resonance. You know, we have, you know, two frequencies that are very, very close to each other and then you start to harmonize, you know, and that, that gives you a sense of, of feeling good, feeling relaxed and kind of going more in that parasympathetic state, you know, so, so I can, you know that. And that's. And I do a lot of the. And I'm not sure if there's something that you would do do or not. I do a lot of muscle testing, autonomic response testing. I trained through Dr. Klinghardt and we use vials and all the different pathogens and then kind of see if the body goes into a resonance when you bring that out, you know, through the muscle testing. And, and I assume that that is kind of a similar. When you are around people that you feel, feel connected with this individual and it may be that they have similar bugs in them that as you do. Yeah. And that's why you feel that connection.
[00:42:53] Speaker C: That makes sense to me.
[00:42:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's fascinating. I mean this is such a, you know, because we, we're all, I mean we, we look upon things so separate, you know, this is us, you know, those are the bugs. And. But in reality, you know, it's an all in interplay, you know, and how we develop emotionally, mentally, physically, all of that. It's a, it's a co creation with all these different pathogens. And like you said, I mean it's not, you know, we're all become then very unique depending on the, you know, the path, you know, pathogenic structure that we have inside. And that will then guide our kind of mental development quite a bit.
[00:43:33] Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. I think that kind of plays into the idea that our human existence, the amount of human cells that we have compared to the amount of microbial cells that we have doesn't hell in comparison. So we're more microbe than we are whatever is human. We can't really know what it is to be human without the sort of microbial interface.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: And so you then being trained as a psychoanalyst and then aware also work with the different antimicrobials and homeopathic and herbals and all of that.
What is your process then when you see a patient, what do you focus quite a bit on that journey?
[00:44:23] Speaker C: Yeah, that's A really, really good question. And since I've been doing this now, it keeps evolving as I learn more, as I become more comfortable. If I. As I kind of figure out what's a little bit more universal with everyone. I keep refining that process.
When I first started doing it, people was coming in the door. I was just trying to. I was just jumping right in and things and trying to get going on treatments. And then I would run into roadblocks and different things like that. So I tried to slow it down and pull it back and figure out what's the best course to go. So it's an ongoing thing that is. I'm still working on and trying to refine that process, and I'm sure it's true for you and everyone else involved.
Some of the things that I like to look at from the gate is some of the things we've already spoken about. How long has it been there? Is it acute or chronic? Is it childhood versus adult?
One of the things that we talked about earlier is in the adult, they have some memory of being fine before. Oftentimes people early in life don't and that changes the treatment focus. Oftentimes when people don't have a reference point to feeling okay before or it's been so long they can't recall, those treatments oftentimes going to be a lot slower. Those people are going to be a lot more sensitive or apprehensive because the fear of the unknown, as many of them would say, what's going to play out is scary to them. Whereas a person who can pinpoint point where they find before. Oftentimes I want to get back to how I was. I was doing this, I was doing this. I was a mom, I was working this, I was working out. And I just don't like this. I want to get back to what's. What can we do? Doctor, help me get back to work. And there's a celerity. They want to rapidly down and get going and moving. So those are two different sort of people in that regard. I think some things that I like to focus on is more the psycho spiritual things. I want to know if they have faith. I have found that the people who don't have faith, not in the religious faith, that's important too. But just in the basic faith of can you see something about yourself that you've never seen before and believe that you can get there?
Trust is a good one.
Trust is.
[00:46:46] Speaker B: I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that, that, that's. That's so. To me, and I And I see that in any, any kind of therapy when you're dealing with chronic illness, you know, the, the importance of being able to be connected to something greater than yourself, you know, and, and to me, and yes, I mean, there are many different religions, I'm Christian myself. But I think just the process of seeing that there's a kind of anchor that exists that is solid, that is true no matter what, that is greater than yourself.
[00:47:26] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And to me, that's one of the most important things that needed for successful treatment. If it's not there.
I've always. Those treatments have always been difficult and they have been difficult to get off the ground or to conclude. And those are sometimes the situations where that person may need to hit rock bottom or spend some time in therapy before we kind of even get to the other parts of the treatment, just so they can kind of get that built up. I think trust is another one. Trust. Faith is not based on evidence. Trust is based on evidence. And so for many people, they have trust issues. Trust in the process, trusting themselves, trusting me as a provider, trust in the medical system, trust in treatments, they just don't trust. And for somewhere along the line, some evidence they've come by has caused some harm to them that has them apprehensive or skeptical or pessimistic, and trust is an issue.
So that's faith, that's trust. The other is purpose.
I find that if people have a purpose that they need to get somewhere, they need to accomplish something, something that's meaningful to them, they're going to be motivated to really get through the process. But if it's a person, let's say 24, extended adolescence in their parents home, for example, they quite yet haven't figured out who they are and their identity. They don't quite have a purpose. But those treatments are a lot slower and harder. They're not really moving much.
The other sort of features I look for are commitment, discipline, and the last one is sacrifice.
The person who wants to get well has to be willing to sacrifice. If they're not willing to sacrifice, it's not going to work. When I was, when I was starting out doing treatment and as a, and practicing, I did not understand this and I was just but beating my head against the wall with some people and I realized they wasn't giving up anything. And until they're willing to give up something, they're not going to gain anything. And there's only so much capacity that we have. And if they're already full of pain, if they're Full of suffering. They're full of disappointments or let down. They have to be willing to sacrifice those things. They have to be willing to sacrifice tangible things in their life, maybe where they spend their time, how they spend their money, different things of that nature. But I get a lot of people come in and say, I want everything to say what it is, and I want to just gain all of these things, and it just doesn't work that way. And those are some realities that I look for very early on on to try to give me a sense of how to go about the treatments, how my structure things. Should I really be jumping in with them going full force, or should I take it more gradually, more conservatively?
[00:50:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And that sacrifice, that. Yeah, that's such an important. That's an interesting aspect because I see patients when they've been living with parasites or living with Bartonella or living with whatever pathogen, and it becomes part of their identity. And so obviously, if we are then trying to kind of work on getting rid of some of these pathogens, then there has to become then an identity shift. And with that, there has to be a willingness then to sacrifice, to let go of something of yourself in order to be able to gain something more.
And I see that a lot in patients is that they are actually afraid of the therapy because. And I'm sure that sometimes that is kind of the bugs that are hardwired into the neural network and they recognize, well, don't do this, because that's my doom. That's my death, and I don't want death. I'm going to send anxiety, panic, all these different signals to stop this individual for going through this type of therapy.
[00:51:36] Speaker C: Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense to me. Makes a lot of sense, yeah.
[00:51:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, this. This world is. I mean, it's so fascinating seeing us and how dealing with Lyme, these different chronic infections, and the impact it has on our mental development, our psychological.
Where we're at psychologically, it's so fascinating. Well, Dr. Winfrey. Yeah.
This has been a fascinating discussion. I really, really appreciate you taking this time with me today.
[00:52:11] Speaker C: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Thank you.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: The information. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and it's not designed to diagnose or treat any disease. I hope this podcast impacted you as it did me. Please subscribe so that you can be notified when new episodes are released. There are some excellent shows coming up that you do not want to miss. If you're enjoying these podcasts, please take a moment to write a review. And please don't keep this information to yourself. Share them with your family and friends. You never know what piece of information that will transform their lives. For past episodes and powerful information on how to conquer lyme, go to integrativelimesolutions.com and an additional powerful resource, lymestream.com for Lyme support and group discussions. Join Lyme Conquerors Mentoring Lyme warriors on Facebook. If you'd like to know more about the cutting edge integrative Lyme therapies my center offers, please visit the Karl filtrate center.com thank you for spending this time with us and I hope to see you at our next episode of Integrative lyme Solutions with Dr. Karl Feld.
